Custodes

[Eldanari]

So was just thinking while at work (and bored at that) and began to wonder about the custodes. Specifically, what is going on with them after the emperor died. I know that they guard him and allow almost no one to see him, and I remember someone saying they do not don they're armor anymore in rememberance of not being able to save the emperor. The biggest question I have is this: Is it possible that the custodes guarding him the the current 40k universe are the same guards that were alive when the emperor fell?

[The Tommunist]

as far as i can tell the emperor isnt dead, hes a vegetable, i would say its possible, (the custodes have got space marine geneseed right?)

[AdmiralBrutus]

Yeah, I would assume it's quite possible, seeing as I haven't noticed any mention of someone attacking Terra/the Emperor in the last few thousand years;P, so the Custodes were unlikely to have died in combat.

[Eldanari]

Okay, true the emperor isn't "dead", he's just mostly dead.

How boring a lifestyle would that be, standing and guarding the same spot for 10,000 years with only visitors incredibly infrequently? Of course I suppose they probably are in charge of helping with the 1000 psykers sacrificed a day, so I suppose they aren't bored out of they're minds. Kind of a harsh way of making up for they're inability to save the emperor.

[Cho-Konnit]

According to Inquisitor/Draco, they do get to shoot the odd rat every now and again...

There are probably also some senile servo-skulls floating about just waiting to get zapped.

[Durandal]

First off, custodes are not space marines; geneticly enhanced as high as a human can be, but not via geneseed, and are much more enhanced. I'm sure they train alot....kill of a stray daemon or two that slips through the gate....all while having their epic 10k year D&D campain.

[kaled]

I'd have thought there are probably loads of threats on the Emperor's life - just because we don't hear about them, doesn't mean they don't happen. Most are probably no match for the Custodes being nothing more than a scribe with a grudge and a gun. But I'm sure over the millennia the traitor marines must have sent kill-teams to Terra, and no doubt foul xenos have sent their assassins too - their chances of success are slim to none, but should they succeed... well, the risk must be worth the attempt and although Terra may be the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium, no defence is perfect.

More of a threat would be things like heretic agents of the Officio Assassinorum, rogue AdMech, possessed psykers, and perhaps most dangerous of all, members of the Inquisition whose authority could enable them to get very close to the Throne Room.

As for your other questions - the Custodes have never been mentioned to have geneseed, they're not Astartes. They may well be the same ones who stood beside the Emperor during the Great Crusade - again, we have no information on that point. For all we know, they might be long-lived but not immortal, and hence may still recruit. It is true that they gave up their armour after the Heresy and changed their ceremonial red for black of mourning. They still wear their helmets though. I like to believe that some still wear their armour - perhaps those few who guard the Thone Room itself, or maybe they wear it on ceremonial occasions such as Ascension Day.

[Fyen'Dran]

The Custodians are not Astartes they are something else and for the most part tend to be stronger. There was a story during the Crusade in which a lot of Space Marines were trapped and losing a fight only for the Emperor to teleport in with several of his Custodians. Two of the Custodians fell during that battle and that was considered to be a big loss for them. During the Crusade, Space Marines died quite often but for Custodians to die was a very rare event.

[ChaosD.]

The Custodians are not Astartes they are something else and for the most part tend to be stronger. There was a story during the Crusade in which a lot of Space Marines were trapped and losing a fight only for the Emperor to teleport in with several of his Custodians. Two of the Custodians fell during that battle and that was considered to be a big loss for them. During the Crusade, Space Marines died quite often but for Custodians to die was a very rare event.

In the short story Blood games(Tales of Heresy story by Dan Abnett) The main character, Amon Tauromachian a custodes of the first circle, he states that The astartes are more cousins to the Astartes, The Custodes are generally Larger and more Pragmatic however they have little real combat experiance that the astartes have and he also states that only a fool would guess the outcome of a battle between the custodes and the astartes. ]

But these guys must be really big, because when Amon meets Rogal Dorn they are almost the same height.

[Eldanari]

Did you happen to mean the Custodes are more like cousins to the Astartes?

[DURENDIN]

Did you happen to mean the Custodes are more like cousins to the Astartes?

In the same way a T-Rex is a cousin of a Velociraptor; of the same genus but different.

Custodes v Astartes? I'll be that fool; my money is squarely on the Custodes.

[space cowboy]

Custodes v Astartes? I'll be that fool; my money is squarely on the Custodes.

Same here. I assume that the Emperor intentionally designed his personal guard to be better than the warriors he sends out to conquer the galaxy.

Also, the Custodes were better troop chits in the Horus Heresy board game than the Space Marines were.

Thanks,
Howard

[Durandal]

Truth be told, it wouldn't surprise me if several combined teams of Custodes could take the Emperor. Why? Well, that happened a lot in the Roman Empire (and we all know that GW loves borrowing from that), and unlike what every t.v. show and video game has taught us, there is no fucking point to having elite body guards if you so overshadow them in power that their job is really just to be a red shirt...it'd be cheap just to have a lot of red shirts.

[DURENDIN]

Again remember that the Emperor was born a normal human man, he's not an eight foot tall genetically modified killing machine!

So yes, in a physical fight a Custode probably could beat the Emperor at arm-wrestling but the Emperor's power is that he is a master-psyker that makes all the Eldar seer councils look like a special school kindergartens by comparison. As Durandal pointed out, if the Emperor was akin to the Incredible Hulk he wouldn't need an army of bodyguards like the Custodes, would he? His flesh is his weakest element, thus the Adeptus Custodes.

[Masshuu]

But the Primarchs are supposed to be the best of the best so should have been able to take on Custodes, and in his visions Horus ripped a pack of them to shreds. The Emperor is stronger than the Primarchs as well so if he is stronger than the Primarchs and the Primarchs are stronger than the Custodes then the Emperor is stronger than Custodes as well.

I thought the Emperor was born really strong and huge and magnificant? Are you saying he genetically modded himself?

[Tarion'Maseth]

But the Primarchs are supposed to be the best of the best so should have been able to take on Custodes, and in his visions Horus ripped a pack of them to shreds. The Emperor is stronger than the Primarchs as well so if he is stronger than the Primarchs and the Primarchs are stronger than the Custodes then the Emperor is stronger than Custodes as well.

I thought the Emperor was born really strong and huge and magnificant? Are you saying he genetically modded himself?
Primarchs > Custodes > SM is how I'd have rated it. So, the Custodes would slaughter Marines, but the Primarchs are a step ahead yet again.

The Emperor though, is human. He wasn't big, or strong as far as I'm aware. He was just immortal, and an insanely powerful Psyker.

[Masshuu]

But all of the Primarchs that wouldnt join him as soon as he appeared he beat in contests of strength and other things. Leman Russ punched him in the face while they were arguing, if he wasnt big and strong this would have killed him and he also punched Leman Russ back and knocked him out for a month. All of the pictures of the Emperor show him as at least the same appearance of a Primarch, like the picture of the Battle between him and Horus, it shows Sanguinus dead on the floor and the Emp is at least as big as both of them.

[Novasry]

But all of the Primarchs that wouldnt join him as soon as he appeared he beat in contests of strength and other things. Leman Russ punched him in the face while they were arguing, if he wasnt big and strong this would have killed him and he also punched Leman Russ back and knocked him out for a month. All of the pictures of the Emperor show him as at least the same appearance of a Primarch, like the picture of the Battle between him and Horus, it shows Sanguinus dead on the floor and the Emp is at least as big as both of them.

yes, the emperor did flat out punch Russ and knock him out cold... but he put four tonnes of psychic power behind the punch, and proberbly had a power fist oon as well...

the emperor was not a great fighter, he was bested in combat by an Ork warboss and had to be saved by horus, in a one on one with no powers, the primarchs would crush him

[Tarion'Maseth]

But all of the Primarchs that wouldnt join him as soon as he appeared he beat in contests of strength and other things. Leman Russ punched him in the face while they were arguing, if he wasnt big and strong this would have killed him and he also punched Leman Russ back and knocked him out for a month. All of the pictures of the Emperor show him as at least the same appearance of a Primarch, like the picture of the Battle between him and Horus, it shows Sanguinus dead on the floor and the Emp is at least as big as both of them.
In power armour though.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle= (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1110203&rootCatGameStyle=)
Power armour adds a lot of bulk :wink:

Anyway, I'm sure I've said this before, but a lot of the Emperor's physical strength is probably psychically charged. If you look at him without his psychic powers, he's human, but once you throw them on him he's a match for Horus as the champion of all 4 Chaos Gods.


Novasry - He was wearing a Power Fist :P

[Masshuu]

No if he was wearing a power fist it would have taken Russ's head clean off. Id still like to think of the Emperor as a big awsome strong guy like a Primarch even if the evidence is stacked against him :smt010

[Tarion'Maseth]

No if he was wearing a power fist it would have taken Russ's head clean off. Id still like to think of the Emperor as a big awsome strong guy like a Primarch even if the evidence is stacked against him :smt010
Nope. He was wearing a power fist. That's how tough Primarchs are.

[Chnamanjx]

I think it's safe to assume that the Emporer, at full psychic and physical strength and wearing his best armor, is weaker than 10,000 Custodes soldiers.

The Emporer is much stronger than the Custodes, and a little stronger than his Primarchs.

However, he always keeps a few custodes body guards with him, I think at least as an early warning system, and to buy him time to prepare, in case of any attack. This way he can sleep (pre heresy)

[Eldanari]

So to bring this topic back to where it started, do you guys think the custodes in the current 40k universe could be some of the same ones from the heresy?

[Durandal]

It's likely. Hell, human sperm has genes that allow it to reproduce endlessly, which if our other cells could do would make us effectively immortal (as a cell divides, part of the DNA chain that is around for copying breaks off; when there is no more to break, the cell stops dividing. fix that and BOOM! immortal).

[kaled]

So to bring this topic back to where it started, do you guys think the custodes in the current 40k universe could be some of the same ones from the heresy?It's possible.

In a way I quite like the idea of there being no way to create new ones and their numbers are slowly dwindling as they die due to accident or injury. Of course they'd be too proud to tell anyone, and even if they did, the technology to create them is long lost. So they just continue doing their job as they have for the last ten thousand years - ever vigilant, never complaining, just doing their duty and repenting for their failure.

[Masshuu]

In Tales of Heresy (which i havent read) theres a thing that can make the wearer invisible which the custodes use. Is it possible that anyone could get ahold of one of these (aka Cypher) or is it just Custode issue?

[obliter8or]

Of course I suppose they probably are in charge of helping with the 1000 psykers sacrificed a day, so I suppose they aren't bored out of their minds. Kind of a harsh way of making up for they're inability to save the emperor.

LOL. And you may not think this is so funny. I have a strange sense of humour. :twisted:

and on topic again, yes they're still there, and yes, they're the same as 6 millenia ago

[Durandal]

Of course I suppose they probably are in charge of helping with the 1000 psykers sacrificed a day, so I suppose they aren't bored out of their minds. Kind of a harsh way of making up for they're inability to save the emperor.

LOL. And you may not think this is so funny. I have a strange sense of humour. :twisted:

and on topic again, yes they're still there, and yes, they're the same as 6 millenia ago
.....10 millennia...it was 10 millennia ago.

[Interex]

I think killing psykers would get pretty boring if you were killing them everyday for 10 millennia.

[Masshuu]

They dont kill them they sort of "feed" them to the Golden Throne. Im not really sure what happens to be honest but they dont just execute them.

[Durandal]

They are plugged into the astromicron to power it, and after about a month they are completely drained of energy and die. There is no thousand psyker line up every day with custodes running up and down decapitating them.

[kaled]

and on topic again, yes they're still there, and yes, they're the same as 6 millenia agoIs that definite? I.e. do you have a canon source for it? Or are you speculating? I only ask because I've never seen anything that states it explicitly.

The psykers who power the astronomicon are not the same ones who 'feed' the Emperor. This is made clear in sources such as Codex Imperialis. The Emperor must feed on raw psychic energy (souls) to live, so any psykers whose minds are not suitable for other tasks such as becoming astropaths or joining the Astronomica, are sacrified and fed into the Golden Throne where their life-force is slowly and agonisingly leeched out of them.

[Masshuu]

Sounds quite painful. All that just to keep the Emperor alive, I think i might be converting to Greatergoodism

[Eldanari]

Well, no one ever said that the 40k universe was a happy place, now did they? It's why some of my armies have turned to chaos. They offered cookies and had a cool new slogan. (the cookies had a funny aftertaste though.)

To Oblitor8tor: Haha, thanks for pointing that out. Gotta love random humor.

[kaled]

and on topic again, yes they're still there, and yes, they're the same as 6 millenia agoActually, having just read the Custodes short story in Tales of Heresy, I've concluded that the Custodians who guard the Emperor are not the same ones who did so during the Heresy.

There's a passage where a Custodian refers to the fact that they add to their names over their lives and that Constantin Valdor's full name contains nineteen hundred and thirty-two elements and that he is one of the oldest veterans. It also says; ' Violent obliteration notwithstanding, custodes lived long lives, far longer than mortal men'. The way those bits are worded suggests that the Custodes know that they are not immortal, just long lived - that being the case, it seems unlikely any of the ones from the Heresy would still be around in the 41st millenium (except perhaps as a dreadnought).

[Eldanari]

hmmm.. I must find this little segment, interesting.

[Masshuu]

There arent actually any Custodes Dreadnaughts right?

[DFK!]

There arent actually any Custodes Dreadnaughts right?

Officially? I have no idea.

Unofficially? Yes.

http://www.chestofcolors.com/cofc-postnuke/albums/benathai_custodes/dread.jpg

[kaled]

There arent actually any Custodes Dreadnaughts right?According to Visions of War there are (or were).

[Dark Leviathan]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/0/0c/Pre-Heresy_Dreadnought.jpg

[Masshuu]

Thats very nice lol But would it be weaker than an astartes dreadnaught or stronger or the same?

[meinhardt]

I dont believe that the custodes feel responsible for the Emperors demise...if the Emperor couldnt defeat Horace without getting totally messed up then what chance would one of them have?

[kaled]

I dont believe that the custodes feel responsible for the Emperors demise...In that case, what's your explanation for them abandoning the use of armour and replacing their ceremonial red with black after His death? Mourning would explain the black, but giving up their armour suggests to me that it was more than just that - that they felt they had failed and must atone.

[Drazhar2]

Is the fluff about the Emporer losing a fight against an ork warboss, and then being saved by Horus even canon?

[kaled]

Is the fluff about the Emporer losing a fight against and ork warboss, and then being saved by Horus even canon?Yes, it's from Index Astartes: The Black Legion.


The two fought together on many occasions. At the fortified city of Reillis, a Human settlement unwilling to accept the Emperor's beneficent will, the defending army used secret tunnels to infiltrate behind the besieging Imperial army and hundreds of shock troops swamped the command encampment. Unprepared and unarmoured, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back until a plasma blast stunned Horus and sent him staggering to the floor. The Emperor stood over the Primarch and refused to give ground until reinforcements arrived to drive their attackers back. On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.

[Masshuu]

That sounds really cool. I think Gamesworkshop should start making Horus Heresy Models that can't be used in Warhammer 40k only in special Heresy battles. Like when they do Lord of the Rings game days and have all historical battles. Or maybe they have already done this lol im not sure

[ChaosD.]

In the Last Church(tales of heresy short story by Graham Mcneil) the Emperor covers his true identity with his Psykik powers and when he needs to convince the priest of the last church that the imperial truth is the one and only truth and that the god he saw at a terrible battlefield was none other than himself, he casts off the cover and reveals himself. At this point i figure that his psykik power either covered his sheer height and bulk when in his early life or that he is normal but then his power makes him look big, which is the commonly accepted theory.

Although it seems rather clearly to me that he is described as being a huge individual. So therefore it would seem that the Emperor could have taken a Primarch in a fight, psykik power aside. After all was the reason why he couldnt strike down Horus that he couldnt bring himself to hurt his favoured son rather than the lack of physical prowess.

Therefore you could conclude that Custodes were more of a symbol of authority than his bodyguard. In fact in tales of heresy it clearly describes them as that. I know this sounds silly but people underestimate astartes, due to the tabletop. When you see Space marines gunned down by lasguns you immediately begin to doubt their power but to be honest a strength is no real match for combat experiance which the Space Marines have. Over the years thought the space marines have maybe become diluted with inactions and doubt due to the heresy and now i would say it is no contest between a Custodes or an Astartes. During the time of the heresy thought i would say it was a differant matter as the each Astartes was a master of dozens of campaigns due to the lack of need for new astartes, that they have in 41st millenium.

[Mephaine]

The Custodes are still needed. The Emperor is psychically powerful and appears large due to him being in rather Ornate Power armour to a human. Most of his power comes from the fact he is an insane psyker. In the last story in tales of the heresy Kharn describes how when these giant alien worms charged him they all just basically died from him projecting a psychic shield. I mean he never knew what was out there. For all we know their could be an insane Blank out their that could have been on bar with the Emperor. The Custodes are an authority symbol but also are needed just in case something did go horribly wrong.

[ChaosD.]

The Custodes are still needed. The Emperor is psychically powerful and appears large due to him being in rather Ornate Power armour to a human. Most of his power comes from the fact he is an insane psyker. In the last story in tales of the heresy Kharn describes how when these giant alien worms charged him they all just basically died from him projecting a psychic shield. I mean he never knew what was out there. For all we know their could be an insane Blank out their that could have been on bar with the Emperor. The Custodes are an authority symbol but also are needed just in case something did go horribly wrong.

The Custodes are needed to protect the emperor, but also as security for the imperial palace and in the 41st millenium the Emperors physical form sat atop the golden throne, but i think they share a similar role to most great leaders in real history. Im sure Alexander the Great had a bodyguard but he could still defend himself rather well, very well indeed if tales, literary works and hollywood are to be taken as truth.

The Custodes obviously serve a greater role in the 41st millenium than they did in the time of the Horus Heresy, this much is made clear in the fact that the emperor is now immobile and ineffective at defending himself from a Pariah or someone or thing with adequate defence from an incredibly powerful Psyker. My beef is with the opinions that the emperor couldn't protect himself in a one on one with Russ, Lion 'el or obviously Horus.

I just cant bring myself to believe that possibly the single most powerful individual the galaxy has ever known couldn't hold his own or defeat his children. I mean if the duel with Horus was purely Psychic than it probably dint last very long and it would have been rather hard for Horus to inflict the grievous injuries that forced the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne.

Sorry about the incredibly long posts:), sometimes i think i take my fluff a little to seriously.

[Novasry]

ChaosD. i think it's made clear in the fluff that the Emperor was not a Great fighter, he was bested in combat many a time versus the orks and without using his powers he was crushed by horus, the emperor was made strong by his psychic powers, therefore in some cases the guarding nature of the custodes is very true indeed...

also remember the custodes are very competent fighters, they and the sisters of silence have fought to defend the palace and won every time

[ChaosD.]

ChaosD. i think it's made clear in the fluff that the Emperor was not a Great fighter, he was bested in combat many a time versus the orks and without using his powers he was crushed by horus, the emperor was made strong by his psychic powers, therefore in some cases the guarding nature of the custodes is very true indeed...

also remember the custodes are very competent fighters, they and the sisters of silence have fought to defend the palace and won every time

Yes i understand your opinion, it does seem rather flawed in this image of this all powerful warrior being stopped by a "Mere" Ork Warboss. However again the flaw with this is that we have no idea how powerful the Ork Warboss was, or indeed anything around the circumstances. Also could you please state one other point in the fluff where it tells us that the Emperor was not a great fighter because i have struggled to find one. All i can find is stuff like the Emperor is the immortal benefactor of manking ect..

The obvious problem in having conversations like this is that it is very difficult to discern actual canon and pure speculation derived from Imperial Propaganda and loose facts. The truth is that you will struggle to find any canon about the Emperor, apart from the obvious about his Psychic might and the Horus Heresy. We will have to rely on our Imaginations until Games Workshop clear up some of these queries.

[Novasry]

can you point out where it says the Eperor was a Great fighter... remember, even though he was the Emperor and all he was still only Human, it's easy to guess that most of his might came from his psychic abilities and hs Power armour

[ChaosD.]

can you point out where it says the Eperor was a Great fighter... remember, even though he was the Emperor and all he was still only Human, it's easy to guess that most of his might came from his psychic abilities and hs Power armour

It doesn't but thats my entire point, the majority of this thread, if not all, is pure speculation, which in my opinion is a good thing because it lets us devise our own interpretation of the background. It doesn't say anywhere that the Emperor was a good fighter, nor does it say anywhere that he was a bad fighter. We are relying on our opinions and our interpretations of the background information. You are merely questioning the commonly held belief that the Emperor was a fantastic and brave warrior of old who stood atop mounds of the fallen dead but rather an individual who relied on his psychic prowess and the strength of his generals and warriors. This is an entirely plausible idea, indeed all that you need do is delve into History to find common examples of this(bar the psychic prowess obviously:) However, his strength augmented by his tremendous psychic powers and his masterly crafted artificer armour, and no doubt powerful weapons, would more than make up for his possible more Human-like strength abilities.

[Masshuu]

Yeah to be honest I have never read a bit of fluff that says the Emperor wasnt a great fighter or that he was just a normal human with amazing pysker powers apart from he was nearly killed by an ork warboss but as ChaosD said it doesnt say exactly what happened, he could have been fighting for a month non-stop, he could have been distracted by other orks etc.

[ChaosD.]

Yeah to be honest I have never read a bit of fluff that says the Emperor wasnt a great fighter or that he was just a normal human with amazing pysker powers apart from he was nearly killed by an ork warboss but as ChaosD said it doesnt say exactly what happened, he could have been fighting for a month non-stop, he could have been distracted by other orks etc.


And im sure i read somewhere, i think it was in Legion that this Ork invasion of Ullanor was the largest one ever encountered, not including Armageddon because i dont know the scale of these Waaghs. So using logic, the biggest and strongest of orks are the ones to take on leadership of a Waaagh of that scale, so it is fair to say that this Ork must have been rather big and powerful. Another point is that it clearly says that the Horus was repaying the favour to the Emperor, where in a previous campaign the Emperor had saved Horus's life from a similar grave threat, using these facts you could conject that the Emperor was maybe on a par with Horus. Although it is fair to say that when the Emperor saved Horus's life it could have easily just been a Psychic attack.

Anyway i think it is best to maybe start this up in another thread, for fear of going off-topic:)

[kaled]

Another point is that it clearly says that the Horus was repaying the favour to the Emperor, where in a previous campaign the Emperor had saved Horus's life from a similar grave threat, using these facts you could conject that the Emperor was maybe on a par with Horus.In that case though, the Emperor and Horus were unarmoured when their encampment was attacked, and Horus was stunned by a plasma blast knocking him to the ground.

The Ork warlord who was strangling the Emperor is described as 'huge', but it does say that it 'struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him' - which suggests that it wasn't finding it at all easy to best the Emperor and maybe Horus's intervention was unnecessary and only hastened the warlords death.

[ChaosD.]

Yeah, and that might also imply that he was vain to use his immense Psychic prowess and that he only used it in the most desperate of circumstances, if it was so easy to use them i dont think that the Emperor would have thought twice about using them on the Ork.

[Chnamanjx]

Sounds quite painful. All that just to keep the Emperor alive, I think i might be converting to Greatergoodism

It's all because of that damn Magnus Primarch. His Sorcery Communication to the Emporer accidently created holes in Terra's Warp Gate.

So the Emporer has to be chained to the Golden throne to keep the demons from flooding Terra.

There is a reason why they're keeping the Emporer alive. Frankly I think they would have preferred to let the Emporer die and be reincarnated quickly.

But both keeping the Warp Gate closed from Demons, and powering the Astronomicon, forces the Emporer to stay alive, and forces the Imperium to feed him psycher souls.

[Durandal]

It's the Emperor's fault for basically drilling into it in the first place. An I wouldn't say "chained" given that it was his request.
Reincarnation not guareenteed either.