Avenger Tactica or, A Mathematical Case for Defend/Diresword

[rehdjac]

I've been promising a write up on why I think Defend and a Dire Sword are a good kit for Eldar Avengers, which of course utterly flies in the face of conventional nerdism. So, though ill advised due to my beer addled state, I'll try and tidy up my thoughts here. Wish me luck.

A very common deployment and tactic using Avengers, maybe even the most prevalent, and certainly among the most exalted, is a full squad in a Serpent, sporting an Exarch with an extra catapult and Bladestorm. No one, or, well, considering me almost no one, will ever tell you this is not a super great idea. More over, slap a Dire Sword on your model and you are instantly identified as a hapless, if perhaps well intentioned, idiot.

I mean, Bladestorm is SO great! For only 15 points you get to fire an extra shot! What's not to love? Toss an exarch in there with two catapults and your off to shreddy land. To this, I summon... MATH!

10 Elf Avenger Squad, Exarch, Catapults, (Bladestorm)
E(x ) shooting Marines: 2.55 (3.93)
E(x ) shooting Guard: 10.22 (14.77)
E(x ) shooting T3 Carapace: 5.11 (7.38)

Neat! Look, that's not too bad. You know?

Fine. But remember, you don't get to shoot next turn. Given that charging is widely held to be suicide with Avengers, what do most people do AFTER they bladestorm? Hell, I see them most often... just, fucking, sit there. And then if they haven't been subsequently murdered by their opponent immediately following their horrible onslaught of shuriken what happens the NEXT turn, the turn the can't shoot because of Bladestorm? Often? Sit there again reloading, or fall back.

It's not hard math to figure the expected value of two turns of shooting normally vs. one turn of a Bladestorm, just double the E(x ) of that number outside the parenthesis.

10 Elf Avenger Squad, Exarch, Catapults, (Bladestorm)
E(x ) shooting Marines two turns vs. one Bladestorm: 5.10 (3.93)
E(x ) shooting Guard: 20.44 (14.77)
E(x ) shooting T3 Carapace: 10.22(7.38)

Obviously, shooting two turns in a row with a full squad is a lot better than firing off one Bladestorm, but even if your squad is reduced to half strength the turn after your first round you are still doing better firing twice in a row. OK, not exactly rocket science, but a lot of people gloss this. And besides, I'm just getting started.

So what? Devil's advocate; A) Sometimes, especially when the shit is about to hit, that little extra boost from Bladestorm is worth it, and; B) A lot of Eldar players have caught on that Bladestorm isn't really the greatest.

Correct on both counts. But I would say many, maybe most, lists still espouse the virtue of the Serpent drop off bladestorm. What the shit? You fly them in, pop out, and storm. Great. For this to be logical you MUST figure that they are a one shot unit, you MUST be counting on their death the following turn. Otherwise you'd either be charging, again almost universally held as a horrible idea, or shooting the next turn. That's a LOT of points to spend for a single shooting phase with an E(x ) of just under four marines.

Am I saying bladestorm is complete shit then? Sort of, but not necessarily. It certainly is however used incorrectly and usually with the wrong kit. Let's have a look at the Diresword. What the fuck? Did this guy just say the word Diresword? How can you even consider giving up the offensive output of that extra catapult? I summon... MATH!

10 Elf Avenger Squad, Exarch, Diresword, (Bladestorm)
E(x ) shooting Marines: 2.138 (3.276)
E(x ) shooting Guard: 8.55 (13.1)
E(x ) shooting T3 Carapace: 4.277 (6.554)

The loss in expected value for going from the brace of catapults to a diresword/pistol kit against Marines, Guard and Carapace is respectively, .412, 1.67 and .833. What I'm getting at here, is the shooting damage of an Avenger squad has way more to do with the troops themselves than the Exarch. Fine. But why bring a Diresword if you're never going to charge with the unit anyway? OK, next.

The thing is, Defend isn't the piece of shit everyone says it is if used well. A single 15 points power can hamstring some of the best melee units in the game, and an Exarch with a Diresword is literally at least four times better in close combat than one without, and that's not taking into account its, albeit rarely useful, special ability. Still one of the worst things about Defend is the name as, BY FAR, Defend is best used on the Attack.

When I've heard most players discuss the uselessness of Defend the logic usually goes something like; "It sucks. I mean, if you get charged by an Assault Squad (or whatever) you're fucking doomed anyway, don't waste the points." And they are, basically, right. But, you shouldn't be letting them get charged. You should be charging, and for fuck's sake, especially if you just let loose a bladestorm!

Look. The difference between being charged by that close combat unit for 31 attacks (arguments sake, one on the sheet, extra weapon, one for assault) without taking defend, and charging them WITH "Defend" is 20 attacks! For 15 points, and a little girding of loins, you take a unit from 31 attacks, to, at best, 11!

"But you're still fucked", I hear you say. Ok, more math.

Assault Squad charging Avengers:
Avengers hit first: .405 (troops) + .148(exarch) = E(x ) .583
Marines second: 4.2 (troops) + .888 (sergeant) = E(x ) 5.08

Avengers are obviously fucked. Assault squad is almost exactly ten times better than the Avengers. They almost assuredly rout. What if the Avengers had charged with a Diresword / Defend exarch the turn before?

Avengers charging Assault Squad:
Avengers hit first: 1 + .888 = E(x ) 1.888
Marines second: 1.185+.444 = E(x ) 1.629

And your Avengers just gained a mathematical advantage against a numerically identical elite close combat unit that costs around twice as many points. For 15 points and a couple of rock in your sack, Avengers can go from being 10 for 1 underdogs to favorites. Note that without the Diresword the Exarch would score about .222, which would leave the unit loosing the fight. Dig it? So...

Let's talk again about Bladestorm. It doesn't take too much imagination to figure out what happens to that Assault Squad if you shoot, or Jesus Horatio Christ if you bladestorm it, before assaulting. They are rousingly fucked. However, if you Bladestorm, and then sit there reloading, those six or so marines left (on the charge and without defend each about 10 times the match for a single Avenger) can still assault you into the dirt next turn, no problem. It is, literally, the difference between life and death.

There is similar probability for most close combat specialists. In fact, as long as your target unit has more than one attack standing still, Defend nets you a huge swing in capability. This doesn't mean you can suddenly dispense with Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins, and cut your friend's Tyranid swarm to bits in close combat with Avengers, but it does give this unit at least double the tactical options. Even if you don't WIN a round of combat you can quite handily stone wall very pricey units. Then you can bring up a specialist squad like Banshees and finish them off. Remember, ANY unit with at least ONE model in combat with your Avengers has one less attack. This is of great benefit in big multi-unit melees.

Sleepy, and beer is wearing off. I'm going to stop for now. But you get the idea.

[Durandal]

Let me say I take great pleasure from reading these reviews/rants you make *salutes*.
All good to know, thanks!

[rehdjac]

Sober.

Thanks for the kind words.

Oh, and forgot to emphasize last night, that the above numbers are all without Doom or Guide.

[Tarion'Maseth]

Very interesting. It's what I thought, but hadn't seen written down.

Now, the issue arises as to how to make use of that information. You can't Serpent of Fury, as that leaves you unable to assault. The obvious answer is move, wait a turn, deploy, shoot and assault. Or, deploy into cover, and shoot normally, and follow up with the Storm/Assault the next turn

[Ron]

Interesting and I agree with all of your points(how can't I with the presence of statistics :D ).

I must ask though. Why the diresword and not PW+Shimmershield? I'd think that a +5 invul save in CC for the entire squad might be more significant than killing multi-wound enemies when they fail a Ld if you wound them. Is there a significant points difference? I don't have my codex on me.

[Tarion'Maseth]

Interesting and I agree with all of your points(how can't I with the presence of statistics :D ).

I must ask though. Why the diresword and not PW+Shimmershield? I'd think that a +5 invul save in CC for the entire squad might be more significant than killing multi-wound enemies when they fail a Ld if you wound them. Is there a significant points difference? I don't have my codex on me.
I can't remember the difference either.

But, I'd agree in principle. The Shimmershield is worth more now than when the codex was released. More Klaws and P. Weapons abound (Example: Orks, Daemons).

[rehdjac]

The Diresword kit still comes with that pistol, and while its output isn't great, it exists. Bladestorm doubles the E(x ) of your Diresword Exarch in the shooting phase, so if you go that route the marginal gain is actually better than with the extra catapults.

Also, not very many close combat troops dispense entirely with armor saves.

And it costs 5 more points.

I don't personally like it the shimmer shield kit, BUT, if you fight against a lot of armor ignoring close combat troops it might be worth a go. I try and speak from the standpoint of experience, and in my thoughts, calculations and applications, the Diresword/Defend kit has the best marginal gain over a plain squad of avengers.

Tarion: I would either do what you said, Fortune the Serpent, speed it in and take the fire, or by preference stay on foot. Fortuned serpents are pretty damn hard to kill.

Of course the other great advantage you have is that NO ONE ON EARTH thinks Avengers are capable of shit in close combat. Trust me. If you park them in the sphere of influence of something like an Assault Squad or whatever, your opponent is very likely to move on you "knowing" full well that he is golden. Most people couldn't summon a second thought about moving a unit within 12" of Avnegers if they tried, doubly so close combat specialists.

Their folly, your gain.

[tone.tran]

I don't doubt your numbers and I do enjoy new methods of thinking, for which this is. I however am not sold on it. Yes, your squad just became more effective in cc against assault based units but I still don't want my avengers in assault and even more so, I don't want to spend points on something they just aren't good at. Against most units, this load out does nothing for you and the select few it does will slaughter you in a matter of turns anyways. How often will Avengers be charging an assault squad? How often will they actually get the charge since Assault marines have movement 12". After your round of tied combat, assault squads are now back in the advantage and will proceed to route you. The Dire Avengers are much more effective when they are shooting as the numbers show so I'm keen on keeping them shooting. Defend will help you tar pit for a turn or two but I rarely find using eldar in that sense is a good choice. Often times, as nice as the numbers may seem, it may not be advantageous because of circumstance. Here, the numbers push towards your analysis but in practice, most people know splitting up a dire avenger's duties as such will more often than not be wasted use of them. There will be times when it will be a huge advantage to have these abilities on them, like when you need to hold that assault squad for a few turns, but it will be fairly rare when this occurs and for the cost of the exarch and all those upgrades, I'd prefer 3 more avengers which over the course of many games will more than make up for that exarch.

Side note: Power weapon/shimmer shield is slightly more expensive than diresword.

[rehdjac]

Those are valid points, and as such, not refutable.

However I can add a bit more. Yes, Avengers are better at shooting, but the point is they are so regardless of your Exarch. Now, the question of whether or not to take an Exarch at all is another discussion, and perfectly valid. The fact remains however, that the massive majority of people do, and the massive majority of them take catapults and bladestorm for 20 points. I'm saying the 25 point kit of Diresword / Defend when used well and with skill looses little in the shooting phase (and with the way most people use Bladestorm, might actually gain), and is potentially 10 times better in the assault phase.

I think that's worth considering for 5 points.

None of this advocates even changing your over all strategy that much, unless you like wasting your troops on the Serpent, Baldestorm, sit there "tactic". Shoot. For God's sake concentrate on shooting. But if your position becomes tenuous (do your avengers spend all game unmolested?), or battlefield conditions dictate, this kit gives you options you simply do not have with catapult/bladestorm.

Lastly, mathematically, the above scenario does not "usually" end with an Avenger loss. Defend never stops working, the close combat squad never gets their attack back, and having suffered through the losses of the shooting phase AND the loss of the melee phase, they do not have the numbers to recover as you assert they do. Remember, those assault numbers are worst case scenario, charging a numerically FULL strength squad. You will have obviously shot them on the way in, bladestorming if you think worthwhile. Your E(x ) will have not been altered, theirs will have been reduces by another two to four marines. So, not the "tie" you state, rater an expected loss.

Plus the model looks wicked cool.

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Personally I agree with Tone, stick away from the Avenger Exarch because otherwise you are either mixing roles or drawing more fire to your fragile troops.

Speaking as a player who doesn't have any DA Exarchs but a mech list I have begun trying NOT to use DA's as mech, more of a midfield holders. 18" range is nice, take advantage of that and most of the time you can take on threats before they get in range to Rapid Fire you down. Common formation I am thinking, hard to show here unless I bring up Vassal somehow but -



[Falcon][Falcon] [Fire Prism]
[Seer Council]
[Avengers] [Serpent & FD's][Serpent & FD's] [Avengers]

It's a stand off formation, but the Falcons can always speed forward 12" and give the Avengers survivors a place to hide in their hulls while the enemy assault-would-be's are now stuck in a dilemma of having to hit a skimmer on a 6. Shooting-wise Avengers should always be fine without the Exarch, given that range.

In the end, it's how you run your Avengers. I think Avengers are best being the pansies they are and staying back just in range of their guns and then finally hiding last minute rather than assaulting every time.

[rehdjac]

Agreed. Avengers are better at shooting than melee. I think we've got that covered.

[BlueInkAlchemist]

In this scenario, if you have your Avengers in a Serpent, would said Serpent have vectored engines? Say Turn 1 you zip up the field 24" (or 36" if you spring for star engines as well, but on most tables 24" will get you where you need to go) and have that delicious 4+ cover save for anyone silly enough to shoot at you. It's not a sure thing, however, and a dedicated anti-tank squad is likely to at least land a glancing hit. To prevent catastrophe, would vectored engines be a sound investment, to settle the Serpent down rather than having it crashing should your opponent score an "Immobilized" result?

Your tactica's thought-provoking (and quite amusing to boot) and might require some thought, playtesting, and perhaps some conversions.

[rehdjac]

I don't really like vectored engines on transports. IF I send my serpents in early I fortune them and hope for the best. Even Str 8s only got a 50% change giving you worry, IF it hits, then its got a 75% chance of being negated anyway, and THEN it they have to roll up an immobilize. And when the ultra worst case scenario of all that for my troops is being dropped into newly created cover of the tank's wreckage and taking a pinning check (Heaven help me, the HORROR!) I'm just not moved to care that much. To me, usually not worth the points, but I've got no great theorem that says it's shouldn't be for you either.

Still, remember, I'm not outlying a strategy here, I'm describing a largely unused and, for most people, unknown tactic. I don't think this isn't anything to build your army around. But in the ultra specialized Eldar world it's nice to be able to count on few units to be able to perform more than one duty should the need or advantage present itself, especially when the alternative is often to shrug, give the unit up, and move on.

[Irakax]

Good information to know. I'm with the boat that says that really just keep it simple and let them shoot, but I have to admit the effectiveness of Defend is not to be underestimated. I got a first turn charge (lucky) with Hormagaunts against my friend's Dire Avengers (well we were playing each other's armies) and he just threw on Defend because it sounded good. It took me at least 4 turns to get rid of that squad, and it only left me with a couple Hormagauints. Excessively maddenning. And I believe the Exarch had a Diresword :lol:

[Ryuorkboss]

I was the friend that he was playing and defend is COMPLEATLY worth the points. It works great agianst mid sized units that have low strength but lots of attacks. For example, a unit of orks get close enough that you can bladestorm and charge them. Move forward, Bladestorm the crap out of them and then charge, assuming theat they have 10 orks left inclu. nob with PK and you have full avengers. You have the same attacks as they do but you strike first and take a few out and they are only S3 when charged. You will kill about 3-4 orks and they will kill about 2-3 avengers, they will probably fail leadership run and be routed.

Also, PRAISE MATH_HAMMER!!! Math is how I make my armies good, theoretical probability. There is a slight difference in the weight distribudion but I say it is close enough, mabey a few rolls out of 1,000 off I would guess.

[Eldar_Corsair]

SHHHH!!! your giving away my tricks!

[rehdjac]

Pretty sure most people around here think I'm either full of shit, an idiot, don't have a fucking clue, or some degree of alll three. Don't legitimize me and no one will ever take notice! :D

[Enoyk]

Heh, the first post of this topic is awesome!Thx for it! I think i'll try it on tournament this weekend.

[LanceWarrior]

I'm thinking this idea could be used as a 'little' surprise on your opponent.

I mean - who's going to expect my Avengers to shoot a unit and then charge it. It would also be a nice tactic to defend an objective with - who doesn't like a "Oh so you think you're going to charge me? Oh no you don't!" moment.

[Drift]

Nicely done Rehdjac.
Sides bein fun to read, it definitely puts the thinkin helmet on.
I've tried used this config every once in a while, to change it up as much as for it's tactical usefulness I'll admit. But havin the math to back it up is always good :P.
Anyways, when I use this configuration, I usually have only tossed it on one of my DA squads. Now, that's assuming most people take two squads of these broom-headed pansies, and it seems most people do. So having two squads, one with bladestorm kit and the other Diresword+Defend, both in Serpents (again, since many people, myself included, like to stick em in a Serpent) lets you use both of these handy tactics on the battlefield, and you SHOULD be able to get em wherever you need em with those speedy transports.

All in all, I recommend at least givin the Diresword+Defend deal a chance every once in a while. As rehdj said, this kit is no reason to drop your scorps, shees or clowns, because Avengers never have been and never will be combat specialists. BUT it does give them more tactical flexibility and a little surprise. So, why not?

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Can try to surprise people, but aren't we allowed to ask what X unit has and if they look different than being a normal shooty squad, people will be asking questions.

A seasoned person will wonder, why are the Avengers so close to my lines?

It is nice hearing the idea and all, I just don't think anyone will fall for it. And tricks like that work ONCE, lol.

[Enoyk]

But it works! :D Thx again! One guy was surprised in tournament today. Dire sword works fine.

[rehdjac]

And tricks like that work ONCE, lol.

A "trick" that only works once because your opponent is thereafter loathe to approach your standard Troops choice is a trick I'm happy to utilize.

And besides, no, in my experience, people don't typically "wonder" what your Avengers are up to, they just lick their lips in anticipation of the easy kill.

[LanceWarrior]

And tricks like that work ONCE, lol.

A "trick" that only works once because your opponent is thereafter loathe to approach your standard Troops choice is a trick I'm happy to utilize.

And besides, no in my experience, people don't typically "wonder" what your Avengers are up to, they just lick their lips in anticipation of the easy kill.

When you have 2x 10-man Avenger Squads and your enemy doesn't want to get near them as not to lose his unit is nice. Could be very nice with a Fortuning + Dooming Farseer on an objective.

EDIT:

I know ponders whether Asurmen and therefore a second Diresword isn't so bad after all. Theoretically 9 Diresword attacks on the charge (5 @ S4) isn't too bad. Although Asurmen is a tad expensive.

[Tarion'Maseth]

And tricks like that work ONCE, lol.

A "trick" that only works once because your opponent is thereafter loathe to approach your standard Troops choice is a trick I'm happy to utilize.My thought exactly - "What's that, you're going to sit ~18" away from my Avengers? Curses, you've spoiled my dastardly plot. Oh well, shoot you it is then"

[LanceWarrior]

And tricks like that work ONCE, lol.

A "trick" that only works once because your opponent is thereafter loathe to approach your standard Troops choice is a trick I'm happy to utilize.My thought exactly - "What's that, you're going to sit ~18" away from my Avengers? Curses, you've spoiled my dastardly plot. Oh well, shoot you it is then"

That'd be quite a fun thing to be able to do. I've just realised how good it is to be able to turn a bad assault unit into a mediocre one:

Shooting + Bladestorm + Charging + Defend = A good amount of casualties for the 172 points you spent on that squad.

Am going to try this idea in my next friendly game (i'm currently in the middle of a local tournament and my Eldar army is fairing very, very bad - W-0/D-1/L-2 :()

[rehdjac]

I've never even tried Asurmen because he's so expensive... and I'm a fucking free wheeling HQ points spending fool. More than Eldrad?! :eek: Just can't make myself do it.

I'm not saying he sucks, because I have literally zero experience with him. I'm very tired of people telling ME what does and doesn't work when they have little idea what they're talking about and I'm not about to visit that same shit on you. So...

Use him! Let us know what happens! (*cough, guinea pig, cough, cough*)

[Tarion'Maseth]

I've never even tried Asurmen because he's so expensive... and I'm a fucking free wheeling HQ points spending fool. More than Eldrad?! :eek: Just can't make myself do it.Jesus. I'd forgotten he was so expensive. Just what does he get to be worth it?

Ouch.

On the other hand, with this tactic he will actually shine. 5 shuriken shots with a 90% chance of hitting is the same number of hits as 2 Bladestorming DA's, so it's a fair bit of punch, followed by 5 attacks that almost always strike first, hit on 3's to nearly anything with re-roll to hits, and he shaves 30 points of Exarch ability of the squad. So yeah, 200 points you pay for him, really.

Where he would shine is in smashing into Nob Bikers, I'd guess. A hell of a lot of shots from the unit, he reduces their attacks back to a more sane level, and he instagibs them at his own initiative level (No stacking his hits, in other words). Oh, and Nob Bikers normally have a low LD so the Diresword ability triggers a lot.

Would be interesting to see, particularly if he had a Direswording Exarch along for the ride.

[rehdjac]

Where he would shine is in smashing into Nob Bikers, I'd guess. A hell of a lot of shots from the unit, he reduces their attacks back to a more sane level, and he instagibs them at his own initiative level (No stacking his hits, in other words). Oh, and Nob Bikers normally have a low LD so the Diresword ability triggers a lot.

Oh shit. That's a really good point. Against any Nob unit, not just bikers, Asurmen and another Diresword exarch would be brutal. It's reroll misses though, not wounds. Still, Doom that NobMob and the two direswords alone will wreak havoc.

Hmm....

[Tarion'Maseth]

Where he would shine is in smashing into Nob Bikers, I'd guess. A hell of a lot of shots from the unit, he reduces their attacks back to a more sane level, and he instagibs them at his own initiative level (No stacking his hits, in other words). Oh, and Nob Bikers normally have a low LD so the Diresword ability triggers a lot.

Oh shit. That's a really good point. Against any Nob unit, not just bikers, Asurmen and another Diresword exarch would be brutal. It's reroll misses though, not wounds*. Still, Doom that NobMob and the two direswords alone will wreak havoc.

Hmm.... I know that, I really did :P Edited to fix.

He'd also wreck TH/SS termies, I'd reckon.

Look at this for a base of an army:
10 DAs, Exarch w/D.Sword, Asurmen
10 DAs, Exarch w/D.Sword, Bladestorm, Defend, Doom/GuideSeer

Maybe screen it with a couple of Conceal Guardian squads or something? Or, just go the obvious route and throw them both in Serpents. The turn they unload, they'd be brutal. The obvious upgrade would be Eldrad in the other unit, but I have some limits :P 400 points of HQ, with ~300 points of troops and 250 points of transport is a bit much for me :P

[rehdjac]

With the exarch, it's almost five wounding hits from the Direswords against a Doomed T4 unit.

So, this would be pretty decent vs. Meganobs, Nobs, Crisis Suits and Ogres. I'm betting since ogres suck now, and since they made new models for them, they're probably about to get a big upgrade with the new book. Might see more of them if people can see past their hard-ons for all the tanks.

If you knew you were facing the above it might be worth it, but I still find that 230 a hard pill to swallow otherwise.

[Tarion'Maseth]

With the exarch, it's almost five wounding hits from the Direswords against a Doomed T4 unit.

So, this would be pretty decent vs. Meganobs, Nobs, Crisis Suits and Ogres. I'm betting since ogres suck now, and since they made new models for them, they're probably about to get a big upgrade with the new book. Might see more of them if people can see past their hard-ons for all the tanks.

If you knew you were facing the above it might be worth it, but I still find that 230 a hard pill to swallow otherwise.
I am finding that looking at him as 200 helps. I'm still not sure what he does to be worth it though. About 30 points equivalent of shooting doesn't seem amazing. Still, he does a lot of CC damage so he might be worth it. And, he's really hard to kill for an Eldar guy.

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Go on and try it, Asurmen might be actually worth it with Red's idea, only problem I got with the proposition is that it does eat a chunk and isn't entirely versatile, but with Nobs being more common, sounds like a good anchor.

[TauCapula]

I just user my dires in a wave with a ss, bladestorm and defend... Why not use both, it never says u cant use both (Does it?). I bladestorm, and assault, why not... you strike first at a probable 3 or 4 marines left after shootings... your exarch will kill 1 or 2, and the rest will do their business.

[tone.tran]

It gets really expensive to use both. Just something to consider when you decide what role your DA will take on.

[LanceWarrior]

It gets really expensive to use both. Just something to consider when you decide what role your DA will take on.

Yeah, but what Rehdjac has suggested is not a full-time role as such more a part-time role, so in this case taking both would be good. Although I wouldn't advise taking both unless you take a Wave Serpent - Avengers just aren't survivable enough otherwise.

[tone.tran]

You start to get into mixed roles for units there. It is a grey line for even space marines to consider. With Eldar, I find mixing roles for units often times not as sound a plan as specialization with proper cohesion from the army to provide the balance. Not to advocate using both as a bad idea, I just merely like to state most players will not be using both properly. A player using their Dire Avengers to fulfill a role that requires both is tactically sound. I just question people's ability to do so. I'm under the impression most players who say they use both or want to use both exarch powers, do so because they feel like a power can in situations become handy. To play eldar well as I've seen, the player must make situations where what they have is best, not react to situations and hope they've loaded up properly for the task.

[Irakax]

What tone.tran has just pointed out was basically what I was doing wrong with my Eldar and why I decided to move to a different army. Eldar as a first army in 40k, and in my case in any tabletop wargame/strategy game, was not a good choice, because I did not have the experience to correctly outfit them to fill the specialised roles they had to to work as a cohesive and efficient force. I like Eldar, and would like to get back to them someday when I'm both better at gaming and painting, but I don't think I have the ability to use them as a good force.

Eldar are harder than other armies to get down, but once you have them figured out, they work extremely well. The problem with mixing roles for the Dire Avengers, or any aspect squad, as they're all very specialised, is that it will be difficult to get yourself into both situtations so that you can benefit from them, and so that their points cost is justified, points which really can't be wasted becuase everything has to fit right for an Eldar army to work. Personally, I know I wouldn't be able to use them effectively enough to make up for their 195 (roughly) points cost. 195 points is a lot, and is what one of my basic CSM squads costs, and I can say that I'd rather have one of them than an over-specialised group of Dire Avengers, because I just wouldn't be able to use those Dire Avengers well enough.

[hellboy4000]

Hmmm you have opened my eyes sir. I haven't played a game with eldar yet (got codex last week and am still prepping by looking at all they can offer to cook up a good list..) but i will take this into account. Sounds like opponents won't expect it either :P

[Baragash]

Not going to lock this as it's a useful topic, but.....


Forum Rules[/color] (http://40kforums.com/phpBB3/forum-rules-last-update-8th-april-2009-t4830.html)]8. Thread Necromancy - Please do not post into very old topics (topics which are beyond the second page of the particular forum, or that have not been posted in for a month or more) - it causes annoyance with other members, as well as a lot of confusion as to where the topic has come from!

(except if adding material content of course).

[rehdjac]

All of my sig links were written before the articles section and medals started that trend. Would it be better to move them elsewhere? Not rhetoric, asking.

[Tarion'Maseth]

Articalising your Eldar stuff would be fantastic. Hell, all your sig stuff, in fact.

What I'd recommend (For anything you do in the future) would be doing it as a post, discussing, refining etc. And then, when you're happy, submitting as an article.

[hellboy4000]

I tried out a battle and I think that bladestorm is just a better use of points (for my playstyle and my idea of fun) I like that they can pump out around 30 or so shots and decimate a target. Then I can have a CC unit close by and then clean up teh rest.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Tarion'Maseth]

I tried out a battle and I think that bladestorm is just a better use of points (for my playstyle and my idea of fun) I like that they can pump out around 30 or so shots and decimate a target. Then I can have a CC unit close by and then clean up teh rest.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
The whole argument in this thread was use both :wink:

[hellboy4000]

I tried out a battle and I think that bladestorm is just a better use of points (for my playstyle and my idea of fun) I like that they can pump out around 30 or so shots and decimate a target. Then I can have a CC unit close by and then clean up teh rest.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
The whole argument in this thread was use both :wink:
Ahhh that makes sense :P

[rehdjac]

Well, also, keep in mind, in any case, the empirical evidence granted you by "a battle" is, unfortunately, basically meaningless in the context of this synopsis.

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

But then again, what happens in actual battle with the luck of the dice is always independent and what happened DID happen, regardless of theory. ;)

[hellboy4000]

I disagree and I think that the evidence I find in battles is completly meaningful because that shows how well they can do in an actual game and not just in math-hammer. It takes into consideration the actual field, different enemy units, terrain and how dice rolls go not just statistics.

My 2 cents.

[LanceWarrior]

I disagree and I think that the evidence I find in battles is completly meaningful because that shows how well they can do in an actual game and not just in math-hammer. It takes into consideration the actual field, different enemy units, terrain and how dice rolls go not just statistics.

My 2 cents.

Math hammer shows on average, what will happen in situations. Therefore math hammer is a good indicator of what a unit should be doing. Game experience shows how you use a unit and how the unit is affected by the board. Put both together et voilà! Put the two together and use as labelled to get good usage out of the unit.

Of course there's no point in using a unit because of math hammer if you use the unit in a completely different manner.

[rehdjac]

It takes into consideration the actual field, different enemy units, terrain
This is skill and tactics. The standard use of Avengers has been discussed and explored ad nauseum, to the point of rote acceptance, very little experimentation, no innovation and utterly predictable gameplay by almost every Eldar player on Earth.

This post was a study in another way to use this unit, and a mathematical foundation of its utility. Your personal experience, using the unit the conventional way, rolling those 30+ dice with a glint in your eye, against your varied opponents, is meaningful to you. I didn't say otherwise. It is meaningless here as anything more than a given. A given, which I believe, I covered thoroughly.

To witness more constructive, more relevant, (though I think well rebutted) criticism look to Smurf's posts.


and how dice rolls go not just statistics.
"How dice rolls go" IS just Statistics (well, precisely, Probability, but most lay folks confuse the two). To believe otherwise is fine as long as you understand such belief is so in the supernatural.

See, I could just tell people stories about my triumphs using Avengers in this manner. However; 1) Almost no one would believe me, and; 2) I'd know for a fact (I almost did this for a living) that my anecdotes were just as factually worthless as yours are to me.