Book Club: Twilight

[Durandal]

(MOZEDIT: I split this topic from the "cullen cult" topic. Rather than just slagging off Twilight, I thought we could focus this topic on a critical appraisal of the book. Anyone who has read it, feel free to comment. Comments about the movie welcome too, but let's keep it fairly flame-free. I'm interested in the investigation for the basis of this cultural phenomenon [btw Mali gets a cookie])

I have begun to read Twilight to gain a fairer opinion (my sister owns em all, so no worries). And I have to say, I can't feel sympathy for someone who doesn't fit in, but doesn't want to make any attempt to. In the first twenty pages, Bella has went through three classes and lunch, and has not listened to a thing anyone has said to her. She knows two people's names (Jessica, whom she barely remembered, and Eric, who she doesn't want to know due to him being the "overly helpful, chess club type." First off, she's the one worried about no one liking her, yet people clearly are, and second, chess is awesome, so screw you). Then there are the Cullens and Hales. Apperantly they don't take to anyone else, nor do the make any attempt to fit in. So why are they there? Perhaps I'll find out later.

Also, why does Bella move to FOrks in the ifrst place, if she despises it so much that her first night she cries to sleep?

EDIT: ALso, this:

No one was going to bite me.Ho ho!! I wonder why that's there!! :wink:

[Mozric]

Hey, Durandal, I just started reading and I'm up to the same place as you!

ANALYSIS OF THE FIRST CHAPTER OF TWILIGHT

It's pretty bad. Does a decent job at building expectations. I'm wondering why the hell Bella wanted to move to Forks -- there's some implication that she felt like she had to, even though her mother specifically said "you don't have to do this".
I don't really like Bella's characterisation of her mother and father as useless -- I guess typical teenager angst though. But, c'mon, her father buys her a car and then gets shy when she thanks him?
She's not a very likeable character. So far she's just been crying, worrying about not fitting in, and people have been nice to her. Only two things holding my interest -- why she came to Forks and what's going to happen with the strange animosity that Edward shows (although I know the outline of how that plays out obviously).
The animosity of Edward seems a bit over the top, I'm interested to see how Meyer justifies it. She could get away with it, but she'll have to do some good convincing of the reader.

The two main problems I've had with the language is the over-use of dialogue and the massive amount of cliche. Seriously. You get a bit of latitude with cliche because it's first person and you'd expect teenage girls to occasionally think like that, but it's a bit grating.
EG:
"[her father was police chief to] ...the good people of Forks..."
"[leaving] my loving, erratic, harebrained mother to fend for herself"
"an alien planet" (Forks)
"I flushed tomato red"
"face of an angel"
"the phrase if looks could kill suddenly ran through my mind"

some of it is also a bit clunky... too many examples to note.


So far it's bad but not unreadable -- I guess you could say it does its job. Not great writing, but I don't have a massive problem with it. It's easy, light reading and holds the attention. Only a few "UGH" moments with the writing.
The characterisation is terrible. I guess you need the extremes though, otherwise the reader could get confused with complex and multi-layered characters. TBH mostly this is a function of Bella's first person perspective -- she thinks of people very simply and so far is pretty much a dickhead.
The plot is okay. It moves through the day fairly well and convincingly. There's a bit of mystery to keep things interesting.

[Mozric]

Read the second chapter.

A bit more BLARGH.
Same old, same old, reveals some information but leaves enough hanging to keep things interesting. Still fairly horrible.
Although in an odd way it's kind of encouraging. As my tutor said of "The Italian" "It makes you realise that somebody with not much skill can write a page-turner".

[The Tommunist]

i read the first fifty pages and got bored, it wasnt as bad as some stuff i've read, but i knew it wasnt for me.

[Mali32]

I have read the whole series and enjoyed it personally though I need to read it again. I sometimes find with books it takes a couple of read throughs before i know exactly what I think of them. At the mo though i like the books although I do acknowledge they arent written very well.
The reason for her moving to forks and Edwards animosity are both explained i think but whether you are satisfied with her explanation or not is up to you guys. Tis good that you are giving it a chance as well.

And WOOOOOOOOOOOOO \o/ Mali got a cookie! Mali epicookie wins. :D

[The Tommunist]

And WOOOOOOOOOOOOO \o/ Mali got a cookie! Mali epicookie wins. :D
tom gave cookie..

but any way, is it true that the books got worse? i've heard that from alot of people, and that a couple of the mare just bella pining for here vampire

[Zawicki]

I found this a bit funny: http://psa.blastmagazine.com/2008/08/23 ... a-promise/ (http://psa.blastmagazine.com/2008/08/23/twilight-a-follow-up-and-a-promise/)

I have never read the book, so I don't know how much of it is true, but I still found it amusing. (WARNING: It does bash the book.)

NOTE: If this shouldn't be here/you feel it destroys the topic just delete it.

[The Tommunist]

seen it, and it makes a good point.

[Durandal]

I will say this:[spoiler:3rae00oh]The attempt rape scene that people poke fun at, isn't really not well done. If four big burly men were about to gangrape me on the street and a car I recoginzed sped up and the driver, who I recognized told me to get in, I would. Of course, how Bella is made a special and unique snowflake immeadiealy after is...well, stupid. Edward can read minds, but not her mind, becuase she "thinks differently."[/spoiler:3rae00oh]
Though, if by "thinks differently," he mean "not at all," I'd agree. There is a part were Bella mental coments on how no one in Phoneix ever found her interesting, but she has no interests. From what I've gathered, she can appreciatie the aestetics of automoblies from the 50s, enjoys part of nature, and "some classical music." The problem is that I have those same feelings, and none of them would be deemed interests. Oh, wait, she likes to read. Don't recall those if she has a favorite genre, etc, though. Literally, her mind is all Edward, all the time. Before that it was hating being in Forks (which was given a vaild reason, though it is one that gives her no right to act how she is about the situation).
The best parts so far were the ones that didn't involve Edward in any capacity. And since Bella and Jacob's little beach scene actually seemed like two people talking, human interaction ins't alien to Ms. Meyer.
Also, in every conversation between Bella and Edward before page 200, Edward does nothing between condesendingly mock her, or srsbiznes talk about how he isn't "safe." I'm also convinvced that Bella had a serve inner ear infection as a child, and it damaged her vestibular system, as no one is so "clusmy" at athletics to inspire fear and scorn in P.E.
Oh, and Edward. Humans can smell blood, it has a fucking odor you twit. Just because we can't smell a single drop from 4 miles away doesn't mean it magically doesn't count.
EDIT: Seeing as how I am not taking college level courses on the anaylis of literaty and/or philosophy (from what I've gathered, Mor is), these will be more of the "everyman" complaints.

[Tarion]

I will say this:[spoiler:2lrijis2]The attempt rape scene that people poke fun at, isn't really not well done. If four big burly men were about to gangrape me on the street and a car I recoginzed sped up and the driver, who I recognized told me to get in, I would. Of course, how Bella is made a special and unique snowflake immeadiealy after is...well, stupid. Edward can read minds, but not her mind, becuase she "thinks differently."[/spoiler:2lrijis2]
Though, if by "thinks differently," he mean "not at all," I'd agree. There is a part were Bella mental coments on how no one in Phoneix ever found her interesting, but she has no interests. From what I've gathered, she can appreciatie the aestetics of automoblies from the 50s, enjoys part of nature, and "some classical music." The problem is that I have those same feelings, and none of them would be deemed interests. Oh, wait, she likes to read. Don't recall those if she has a favorite genre, etc, though. Literally, her mind is all Edward, all the time. Before that it was hating being in Forks
I think this is part of the whole "she's a blank canvas for the reader to project onto". She has some generalities that are subtle enough to not break the immersion, but other than that, she is just the adolescent girl reading it. As for the thinking "differently", well, the reader is a special snowflake, right? :P

Its weird that this seems to bother me here, when I fully support Valve (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/gordon-freeman-strongest-personality-in-gaming/a-20080118104744203035) doing it.

Definitely going to give reading this a go, as soon as I can get hold of a copy for free :P

[The Tommunist]

I will say this:[spoiler:3n5lkfio]The attempt rape scene that people poke fun at, isn't really not well done. If four big burly men were about to gangrape me on the street and a car I recoginzed sped up and the driver, who I recognized told me to get in, I would. Of course, how Bella is made a special and unique snowflake immeadiealy after is...well, stupid. Edward can read minds, but not her mind, becuase she "thinks differently."[/spoiler:3n5lkfio]
Though, if by "thinks differently," he mean "not at all," I'd agree. There is a part were Bella mental coments on how no one in Phoneix ever found her interesting, but she has no interests. From what I've gathered, she can appreciatie the aestetics of automoblies from the 50s, enjoys part of nature, and "some classical music." The problem is that I have those same feelings, and none of them would be deemed interests. Oh, wait, she likes to read. Don't recall those if she has a favorite genre, etc, though. Literally, her mind is all Edward, all the time. Before that it was hating being in Forks
I think this is part of the whole "she's a blank canvas for the reader to project onto". She has some generalities that are subtle enough to not break the immersion, but other than that, she is just the adolescent girl reading it. As for the thinking "differently", well, the reader is a special snowflake, right? :P

Its weird that this seems to bother me here, when I fully support Valve (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/gordon-freeman-strongest-personality-in-gaming/a-20080118104744203035) doing it.

Definitely going to give reading this a go, as soon as I can get hold of a copy for free :P


i don't believe that. any "blank canvas" in twilights main character is just bad writing, its a book after all, a book which i believe is supposed to have a plot and character development .


on the other hand Gorden freeman was made as a blank canvas on purpace

[Tarion]

I disagree. I think its pretty obvious that the character is meant to be a fairly empty vessel for the reader to fill with their own self - That's why it has the fanbase it does, and why people want that lifestyle.

Now, I'm sure its not brilliantly executed, so there is that element of bad writing in it.

[Mozric]

I don't think that was Stephanie Meyer's intention though. You do try to create a hero that the reader can identify with, but giving them no personality is a different thing. It seems that maybe Bella wasn't thought about too much, just fleshed out to be vaguely like the writer.

[Malcadon1]

What? Valve made Gordon Freeman a blank canvas because the player is controlling him. You make him do whatever it is that he does.

A blank canvas character that you are controlling is completely different from a blank canvas character in a novel (which you are reading to, you know, follow the exploits and thoughts of the character).


It's like the difference between giving an artist a blank canvas to work on and hanging a blank canvas in a national art gallery.

[The Tommunist]

I don't think that was Stephanie Meyer's intention though. You do try to create a hero that the reader can identify with, but giving them no personality is a different thing. It seems that maybe Bella wasn't thought about too much, just fleshed out to be vaguely like the writer.
What? Valve made Gordon Freeman a blank canvas because the player is controlling him. You make him do whatever it is that he does.

A blank canvas character that you are controlling is completely different from a blank canvas character in a novel (which you are reading to, you know, follow the exploits and thoughts of the character).


It's like the difference between giving an artist a blank canvas to work on and hanging a blank canvas in a national art gallery.

thank you both for arguing my point much better than i ever could

[Tarion]

What? Valve made Gordon Freeman a blank canvas because the player is controlling him. You make him do whatever it is that he does.

A blank canvas character that you are controlling is completely different from a blank canvas character in a novel (which you are reading to, you know, follow the exploits and thoughts of the character).


It's like the difference between giving an artist a blank canvas to work on and hanging a blank canvas in a national art gallery.
Thinking about it, I dislike my use of the term "empty vessel", as well as your term "blank canvas". Neither one really fits what I'm after.

Its more that I think she's more of a place-holder for every teenage girl reading it. I'm not arguing that it's necessarily a good thing, or even a conscious choice of the author. However, I'd be willing to bet that you get a lot more out of the book if you're the target audience.

Essentially, its lazy writing. Saves her from developing the character she uses :P

[Gkjester]

I think you have the situation pegged, Tarion, whether Stephanie Meyers intended it to be that way or not.

Essentially, Stephaine created a fantasy love story, and the reader (if a teenage girl) has the option of either reading a story about a boring single dimentional girl, or placing themselves into that place and living the fantasy through the book.

It would be interesting to ask some of the die hard female fans to describe Bella. I have a feeling that some of them would transfer their own traits over to Bella.

[Thatfatguy]

I have heard many things about twilight, and they are pretty much split into 3 groups (each group only contains people who have read twilight)

Majority of people I know - Think it is utter shite

Minority of non-religious twilighters - think it's okish

Minority of religious twilighters - think it's the best thing ever, and usually start screaming at people who badmouth it (mostly girls)

[Mozric]

Read chapter 5 and 6 last night, and I think I've worked out my issue with the book.
Edward isn't very interesting.
Naturally I guess I'm looking a bit more at Edward than Bella, because I'm a guy, but things have been very strange.
I must admit I liked some of his snarky comments towards Bella's frailties, but he seems to be under it in love with her. The problem here is that there seems to be no reason at all for his liking her. Not just in the way Bella says "how could anybody like me", but he actually is a dick to her, and it seems like he'd instead be more interested in just ignoring her.

Edward's character, like Bella isn't very developed. It seems he has a facade of jokes and dickheadishness, and underneath he's a protective dickhead. Who's in love with Bella for some reason.

The other thing that pissed me off was in Chapter 6, with Jacob...
[spoiler:1m9aqgto]Bella flirts with Jacob just to get information. Although she does note how "fake" it feels, it's not just weird for her, it's totally contrary to character. Here we have a girl who hasn't shown any sign of social savvyness, other than swooning over a pretty boy. She's turned down 3 offers for a date and she's fairly awkward around everyone including Edward. I just don't buy it that a girl like that is going to flutter her eyelashes at a boy just to pump him for information. She just wouldn't be capable of it.[/spoiler:1m9aqgto]

Yeah, and Durandal was right, Edward enters creepy territory in Chapter 5. "GET INTO MY CAR LITTLE GIRL." :lol:

[Durandal]

Yeah, and Durandal was right, Edward enters creepy territory in Chapter 5. "GET INTO MY CAR LITTLE GIRL." :lol:
Actually I was refering to the scene in the cafeteria where[spoiler:sx7jrun5]He is sitting alone, starring and smiling at Bella until she looks at him, at which point he raises his arm and does the "come here" index finger move. Total creeper man.[/spoiler:sx7jrun5]

[ChaosD.]

I read the first one and found them okay. My problem isnt really with the books its with the concept. I personally dont agree with the watering down of vampires to stop them being gruesome.I mean they glitter in the sunlight for gods sake! What happened to the good old days where vampires exploed in the sunlight. I love the gothic nature in the Vampire counts rulebook. I love dracule. I love Salems lot ect..

Having said all that. I did find the book well written and quite easy to like the characters. Overall a good book. Just dont like the concept.

[isthatmycow]

i personally just think that bella is a whining girl that says taht no one likes her, though people are trying to like her, and edward a creep-ass motherfuckin' stalker. didn't ti say he stares at her through her bedroom window?

[Durandal]

OKays, here's my problem with the stalker bit.
[spoiler:pwuipx54]When she finds out he's been stalking her (He knew where her secrect front door key was), despite knowing she should be angry and scared, she felt flattered. When she found out he had spent at least the last month watching her the whole night, nearly everynight, her only reaction was embarrassment from what he'd have heard her say in her sleep. This single scene encapsalates why this should not be a love story; at it's best, it is about the folly of teen romance, at it's worse, it is a look at the minds of people who engage in highly unhealthy, possessive relationship.[/spoiler:pwuipx54]

[Mali32]

Guess you guys dont believe in the whole true love at first sight thing then?

[Durandal]

Guess you guys dont believe in the whole true love at first sight thing then?
When it's "true love" because the first thing you see and fall in love with is a perfect body, no, I don't. I understand "suspension of disbelief" for first sight love (protip: it doesn't happen in real life), but their relationship is devoid of any love at all.

[Expalphalog]

Love at first sight is a logical fallacy.

You are attracted to someone at first sight, and then later when you truly fall in love, you look back at that moment as significant and powerful when in reality it was no more significant than the first time you saw any other person that you were attracted to.

[Malcadon1]

Guess you guys dont believe in the whole true love at first sight thing then?Love at first sight =/= breaking into someone's house and watching her sleep every night for a month. Seriously, if a girl did that to me I would call the police straight away, even if it was someone who I thought I loved at first sight. That shit is just damned creepy. Trust me, if that's the kind of thing Edward does then I am 100% certain that he would have raped at least one person by the time he met Generic Teenage Girl. If not then he probably does later in the series.

[Durandal]

Speaking of rape, anyone find it funny that Bella just happened to run across the only four guys in a small, low crime tourist town, who agreed that after a few brewskis and the game at the bar, to wonder around and rape the first girl they found alone?

[isthatmycow]

the story itself is flawed and filled with holes. I mena, bella has no interests, as stated, she really isn't that interesting of a person, in fact she is extremely boring.

[Mozric]

*casts resurrect*

Well, after a break from reading it, I finally finished Twilight.


[There will be spoilers]


It wasn't so bad. The writing wasn't great, but fairly clear. The descriptions of Edward were bad and repetitive -- in fact I have no idea what any of the characters look like...
My main problem was that there was no real tension or conflict for the middle half of the book. The first bit had a bit of a mystery element, with Bella wondering why Edward was being a dick, but as soon as we find out he's a vampire and loves her it's all really straightforward romance stuff. Fairly tedious, really, with no drama to keep interest. I must admit that the whole fetish-y fear/lust thing was done well, with Edward being the dangerous bad boy -- classic Byronic hero stuff, handled well. A real annoying bit here (the bit where I stopped reading for a few weeks) is where you find out that Edward hunts lions. For me this really solidified his image as flawless, and as such utterly boring. When you have evil creatures that develop a conscience, it's generally a given that they forfeit some of their awesomeness. I couldn't help but think back to Louis in Interview With The Vampire -- he is reduced to eating rats and dogs, and actually looks pathetic. While these vampires have given up eating humans, but instead hunt prey which actually are a lot tougher and more dangerous than humans. It's like they haven't given anything up.
The most interesting bit for me in this section was learning a bit about the other vampires (Alice is cool) and the history of Mr Cullen. Mostly this is because I think immortality, and being able to remember back centuries ago is just awesome. Then vampire baseball ruined everything.
The last quarter of the book with the evil vampires was a bit more exciting than anything else, but not very good. There was a real cringe moment for me when the bad guy actually has a monologue where he explains his MASTER PLAN MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The actual fight with Edward and James (or whatever he was called) was off-screen, which was fairly annoying. It ended up being a classic damsel in distress, with the brave hero rescuing her. I'm not sure why Mr. Cullen couldn't suck the venom out himself -- surely he'd be more immune to the temptation to kill.

Overall it was actually a kind-of encouraging book. As one of my tutors said (memorably about The Italian) "It's evidence that you can write a decent page-turner without much actual skill."
To Meyer's credit, she handles things well. Her overall theme and plot is very tacky, but she mines it pretty well. The writing isn't bad, nothing special, but it reads smoothly. The worst bits surround the characterisation of Bella and Edward. Neither of them are likable, and Bella never actually describes Edward (I swear if I hear the phrase "face of an angel" again...).
The theme of the book actually seems a bit insidious. Here the protagonist is bored with any sort of normal life, but waits until a vampire comes and takes her into his life of romance and adventure. Then all she wants to do is become a vampire. I don't think books should be didactic, but I don't think the things valued in this book are very good. Escapism is good, but it shouldn't be promoted at the expense of reality. While in this book the fantasy is perfect, flawless.
The book is all about true love and love at first sight -- Bella completes Edward. But there's no real reason why the two of them should work so well together. It's just an appeal to the myth of "true love", a myth which I think, though sweet, is not something people should come to expect from life. Love is something wonderful, but it should be something that develops and sparks, not something that's fated. You can't wait for your Edward to come. One of the telling lines in the book was where Bella realised that if she'd accepted one of the human boys invitation to the dance, she may have missed out on Edward. Now this makes me a little worried about the kids reading this book -- should you really give up the chance of fun, maybe even love, because you don't think your true love has found you yet? Hell no! Just because you go out with somebody doesn't mean you're stuck with them forever, and I thought we'd worked that out by now. You make your own life and your own love.


I don't really feel inspired to read on to the rest of the series. I assume there'll be another run in or two with evil vampires, maybe werewolves. Edward will have to protect Bella and maybe she'll be put in a dangerous situation where she can't get Edward's help. The central conflict seems like it will be Bella trying to convince Edward to make her a vampire. Finally he'll give in and it will be a happy ending.

[isthatmycow]

I don't really feel inspired to read on to the rest of the series. I assume there'll be another run in or two with evil vampires, maybe werewolves. Edward will have to protect Bella and maybe she'll be put in a dangerous situation where she can't get Edward's help. The central conflict seems like it will be Bella trying to convince Edward to make her a vampire. Finally he'll give in and it will be a happy ending.

i wouldn't blame you

[isthatmycow]

I actually read like the first 200 pages.

It, well, sucks

like mozric said, but well, i'm more used to more sophisticated reading, (john jakes _Norht and south, california gold, Kent family chronicles, Tim O'Brien - going after cacciato, if i die in acombat zone (box me up and ship me home), the things they carried, Ernest Hemmingyway - a farewell to arms, the old man and the sea, For whom the bell tolls, Etc.) and well, compared these books to twilight, twilight is a god awful piece of shit. what ever award it won i it don't think it deserved.

I mean, she was able to keep my interest for one hundred pages, and then the rest sucked, i had to force myself to read it, then i couldn't take it.

I think Mozric did a really good review.

[Durandal]

I don't really feel inspired to read on to the rest of the series. I assume there'll be another run in or two with evil vampires, maybe werewolves. Edward will have to protect Bella and maybe she'll be put in a dangerous situation where she can't get Edward's help. The central conflict seems like it will be Bella trying to convince Edward to make her a vampire. Finally he'll give in and it will be a happy ending.

i wouldn't blame you
If you really want to know the conclusion, from what I've heard,[spoiler:2agopmvw]Human Bella gives birth to her hellspawn half-human half vamp baby, which quite literally tears up the inside of her body while Eddy bites it out of her. Then he turns her. Then she gets super special and unique snowflake vampire powers. And everything is a oh kay.[/spoiler:2agopmvw]

[isthatmycow]

now that is cheesy stupido