Have the new Tyranids been designed with beginners in mind?!

[JesterSinistry]

...and have they alienated the long-term Tyranids players?!

I've recently purchased the new codex (reluctantly as the book before was particularly fun to play with!), and my overall opinion is that they've designed the Tyranids with beginners in mind.

You've always been able to have a lot of customisation with the Nids, fielding either huge horde armies or fast attack flyers or cheesey big guy armies and the amount of customisation on the big guys especially. Now it seems better to pretty much take every unit as they come, meaning you'll be seeing plenty of similar Nid armies by beginners who won't need to remember what equipment and abilities their monsters have.

I'm also massively griped that hormagaunts have lost their 12" charge and that genestealers are now going to get drmolishedwhen charging into troops in cover.

Maybe it's just that it's "new book syndrome" and I'll get used to them but going back to tyrant guard and a walking hive tyrant is like going back to the dark ages for a player like me who prefers fast assault! If I wanted a change in dynamic, i would've collected another army.

What does everyone else think? Am I just being negative or have other long-time Tyranid players been turned-off by the new codex?

[Horuswasduped]

I don't think they designed it for beginners, other than the slight simplification by removing options. but when they take away, they usually give back with new. IE losing all the variants of carnifexes, spiperfex/godfex/dakkafex/ etc and gaining trygon/mawloc/tryprime/tyranofex was sheer genius from a model sales standpoint.

[JesterSinistry]

Exactly, good for GW, not for the people actually playing the game. I know that a lot of Nid players wanted to have the big big guys introduced, but to me the last codex was written in such a way that you could take a number of different styles of armies, whereas the new models seem a complete waste of time as players realise that, in terms of points, they're overpriced.

So after spending 3 codexes fine-tuning the army, they've waded in with a load of new models and completely changed the dynamic of many of the established models.

I also don't feel massively motivated to model/paint a new Hive Tyrant and newer big guys, especially after spending a shed-load of time, money and effort on my winged hive tyrant and 2 carnifex models.

GW does continue to test my patience!

[Angelofblades]

So after spending 3 codexes fine-tuning the army, they've waded in with a load of new models and completely changed the dynamic of many of the established models.



Give this man an award, he's onto something here. /sarcasm

Honestly, it's not about 3 eidtions of fine tuning, it's about keeping up pace with the current edition rule book. Also realize that though the dynamic of the established models may have changed, the tactics of the army really haven't. More tactical options have been introduced, while unit options have been taken away. Give and take, perfectly reasonable.

It makes total sense, new codex, new dynamics. There hasn't been a codex release to date, since the Chaos codex, that hasn't forced people to buy new models, to convert new units and try new things.

[obliter8or]

It's not just tyranids, it's every army that's getting 'simple'. Chaos is a good example.

With the new codex I was waiting for the ability to completely customise my bugs, something like:

Gaunts
base pts/model: 3
3 3 3 3 1 4 1 4 6+

Weapons & equipment:
Fangs & claws

Special rules:
Fleet
Animal instinct

Movement:
leaping (12" charge), for +1.5pt,
Winged (jump infantry, may not deep strike), for +2pts,

Stats:
+1 WS, S, T for +1pt, +1 BS, I, sv for +0.5pt

Weapons (max. 1):
Scything talons (+1A), for +1pt
Rending claws/ talons (rending, +1A), for +3pts
Devourer (18", S as user, AP-, assault as user A X2), for +3pts
Fleshborer (12", S as user +1, AP5, assault as user A), for +2pts
Spinefists (12", S as user, AP6, assault as user A, twin linked), for +1pt

Half points: Once you've determines the points cost of a model, round up. (i.e. 5.5pts/model = 6pts/model)


Not hijacking thread, just giving some examples.

[Durandal]

You don't see how needlessly complex that is?

[obliter8or]

I do, just throwing out some ideas.

The point is, I loved to be able to really 'evolve' my gaunts. Now I'm stuck to 2 kinds, while the essence of the tyranids to me (especially Gorgon) was adaptibilty and rapid evolution.

[LanceWarrior]

but to me the last codex was written in such a way that you could take a number of different styles of armies, whereas the new models seem a complete waste of time as players realise that, in terms of points, they're overpriced.

You were trying to be hugely sarcastic here right?

The Old Nids codex had one viable option for winning - Nidzilla. It was not fun to play against, and after a while, whilst still winning most games - i'm told it got boring. The Old Nid codex had one style of play - and everything comparatively (with other newer style codices) underpriced.

This codex has many more options - more playstyles, more units etc., including options which are there for larger points games. And the points cost are much more fairer, some may be a little expensive (Fexes), but most are much more reasonable than the last codex.

Nids players who dislike this codex are players who are dissatisfied that they have to actually use tactics to win games with this codex IMO.

EDIT: Though I would have liked to see greater customisability of things like Gaunts; you could never truly represent Tyranids, other-wise you'd have a codex of every possible adaptation. E.g. Gaunts that could shoot, Gaunts that were super tough, Gaunts with great armour, really strong Gaunts etc. It'd be never ending, and therefore is practically impossible to do.

[Durandal]

This codex has many more options - more playstyles, more units etc., including options which are there for larger points games. And the points cost are much more fairer, some may be a little expensive (Fexes), but most are much more reasonable than the last codex.
Food for thought-a shuri/scatter wraithlord is cheaper then a naked fex, and nearly as good at everything they can do. Not that wraithlords are very competitive right now.

While I have some disagreements with certain rules/stats/points, it is a solid 5th edition book.

[obliter8or]

True, it's a solid 5th edition codex.

The thing I don't like about it is it's too simplistic for me, apart from a few minor things like, as Durandal said, the overpriced carnifex, old one eye, etc.

I would've liked something more than just poisoned attacks and furious charge.

[MadMage]

Uhm... all of the Codicies that are coming out have been streamlined into pretty much straight up 'stock' units.

You can look at it as 'dumbing down' if you want, but personally I enjoy the simplified version. The old Chaos Codex, for example, just had too much crap and became confusing to read. "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to remove."

[PyroSikTh]

Now where's my Tyranid Complaint topic gone :P

[MC Tic Tac]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say..........

Other the known issues with how the Doom works, this current nid codex is perfectly fine.

Only people I hear whining are old Nidzilla players.

[edmundblack]

Only people I hear whining are old Nidzilla players.

I hear you brother! Those and Genestealers Spamalots. The bug book is great, about the only unit that sucks in it is Pyro's unrelated semi-namesake. And you get Trygons ffs! Who wouldn't want one of those?!?!?!

[Durandal]

Someone who likes their heavy support be more then a bullet sponge?
EDIT: Not that Trygons are bad, but their uses are limited.

[LanceWarrior]

Only people I hear whining are old Nidzilla players.

I hear you brother! Those and Genestealers Spamalots. The bug book is great, about the only unit that sucks in it is Pyro's unrelated semi-namesake. And you get Trygons ffs! Who wouldn't want one of those?!?!?!

*Follows this line of thinking*

[JesterSinistry]

I'm going to put it down to new book syndrome and play some games to find out what works and what doesn't. Actually writing out a few extra lists has given me a slightly better look at what's possible. I'm still going to use a winged Tyrant and just adjust my tactics.


The Old Nids codex had one viable option for winning - Nidzilla. It was not fun to play against, and after a while, whilst still winning most games - i'm told it got boring. The Old Nid codex had one style of play - and everything comparatively (with other newer style codices) underpriced.

Nids players who dislike this codex are players who are dissatisfied that they have to actually use tactics to win games with this codex IMO.

I quite happily admit that there are Nid players out there that love the Nidzilla, unfortunately I'm not one of those and to brandish all Nid players as unable to use tactics is quite frankly, pathetic. I also agree that the new codex has far more monster choices, what I'm saying is that they've introduced them at a cost to overall balance of the army. As many people on here have already said, you wont see many armies with a lot of the new monsters.


EDIT: Though I would have liked to see greater customisability of things like Gaunts; you could never truly represent Tyranids, other-wise you'd have a codex of every possible adaptation. E.g. Gaunts that could shoot, Gaunts that were super tough, Gaunts with great armour, really strong Gaunts etc. It'd be never ending, and therefore is practically impossible to do.

I do agree with this though, my thoughts would have been to introduce one different type of gaunt. thereby having something in between termigaunts and the old hormagaunts. But as I've said above, I'm going to give them a go and stick with it. The Nids have always treated me well.

[The_Peacemaker]

To OP:

Give the codex a try. This is one of the codex's where whats looks good/bad on paper differs from the actual gameplay.

Tips:
Winged hive tyrants work fine, you just can't blinding move him forward. When he gets shot down remember to look at who did the shooting. Was it a 70pt IG infantry squad? or was it 800pts of Infantry/tank/special units.
The Tyranid Prime with boneswords is basically a mini-hive tyrant.

No frag grenades:
This is really what makes the nids need some tactics. You have very high Initiative all around so you will go first when your enemy is not in cover.
Re-read the wording on assaulting into cover. Its says if the assaulting unit has to make a difficult terrain test then the count as Initiative 1. So watch for the lone marine or guardsman who is sitting on the side just outside of cover, charge him!
If your opponent wants cover so badly then he has to bunch up his units inside that ruin which means barbed stranglers hurt more. He has to decide which is more threatening.

The codex is very balanced. It does need an FAQ, and I personally think they limited the carnifex a bit too much. But thats more from a fun perspective.
If you cast feel no pain on him then he becomes a real monster.

[MadMage]

Only people I hear whining are old Nidzilla players.

I hear you brother! Those and Genestealers Spamalots. The bug book is great, about the only unit that sucks in it is Pyro's unrelated semi-namesake. And you get Trygons ffs! Who wouldn't want one of those?!?!?!
I don't really run any Carnifex's and only had two before... but I'd still like to see the points cost a tad more reasonably balanced.

Currently, my army consists of a frighteningly large swarm:
90 Hormagaunts
20 Warriors
60 Genestealers
9 Zoanthropes
60 Gargoyles

Just sayin.

[Flynx]

To be honest, I had never played a game with my nids yet. I got into them over a year ago, painted, made background stories, THE WORKS. The one thing I never had time to do though, is actually play a game with them. I have no idea what Nidzilla is, and I don't really care. With new rules comes new strategies! Why use old strategies that are extremely faulty now? With those of you who, unlike me, have played tons of games with the old nids, I recommend one thing: Forget old tactics. Come up with something new that the enemy won't expect.

I do think that the codex has been simplified but like MadMage quoted:

"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to remove."
Now that there are new models out too, there are so many possibilities.

[Durandal]

Nidzilla was three carnifexes in the elites (yes, certain builds you can't make anymore were elite choices), three carnifexes in Heavy Support, and a Hive Tyrant, with minimum troops. While it became a cliched list, it became one of the only effective builds.
With this new edition, Carniexes lost a number of their opinions, and while you could take three more of them then the old list, the cost is so high it isn't worth it (1430 points, no upgrades), and then increased the Tyrant's cost as well, while adding two cheaper and really good HQs, neither of which have models.
So, now players had models they couldn't field (illegal builds), models too expensive to field in comparison to the other options (trygons/primes/primes/tervis), AND have to convert for a number of things.
And it turns out a lot of people don't want to have to buy a new carnifex box to scratchbuild a shitty looking tervigon/tyrannofex.

[MadMage]

Nidzilla was three carnifexes in the elites (yes, certain builds you can't make anymore were elite choices), three carnifexes in Heavy Support, and a Hive Tyrant, with minimum troops. While it became a cliched list, it became one of the only effective builds.
With this new edition, Carniexes lost a number of their opinions, and while you could take three more of them then the old list, the cost is so high it isn't worth it (1430 points, no upgrades), and then increased the Tyrant's cost as well, while adding two cheaper and really good HQs, neither of which have models.
So, now players had models they couldn't field (illegal builds), models too expensive to field in comparison to the other options (trygons/primes/primes/tervis), AND have to convert for a number of things.
And it turns out a lot of people don't want to have to buy a new carnifex box to scratchbuild a shitty looking tervigon/tyrannofex.
The not having models things really agitates me. I hate when they put an option in the book that you can't even friggin field because I'm not a goddamn scupltor. Luckily, I have the perfect idea for WarriorPrimes - it's just an expensive idea.

[Tarion]

I quite happily admit that there are Nid players out there that love the Nidzilla, unfortunately I'm not one of those and to brandish all Nid players as unable to use tactics is quite frankly, pathetic. I also agree that the new codex has far more monster choices, what I'm saying is that they've introduced them at a cost to overall balance of the army. As many people on here have already said, you wont see many armies with a lot of the new monsters.There's a difference between "requiring tactics" and "being bad". And competitively, 4th edition Tyranids were bad in 5th edition, unless it was Nidzilla. They had no decent anti-tank, Fearless effectively crippled them in combat and they were hideously overcosted in comparison to Orks. There's only so much you can do with tactics.

This codex has many more options - more playstyles, more units etc., including options which are there for larger points games. And the points cost are much more fairer, some may be a little expensive (Fexes), but most are much more reasonable than the last codex.
Food for thought-a shuri/scatter wraithlord is cheaper then a naked fex, and nearly as good at everything they can do. Not that wraithlords are very competitive right now.There's a few reasons that this isn't a viable argument.

Mostly, it comes down to comparing in a vacuum. And that's exactly the mistake they made with 4th edition 'Nids. The value of tough creatures is related to how many you can take. When you can spam them, as the Tyranids are -very- capable of, they are much tougher. A mixed army, such as the Eldar are forced to run, can't abuse this.

Also, you need to look at what slots they're competing for. Wraithlords are competing with Fire Prisms, Falcons (Remember, its a 4th edition codex. Falcons were godly) and other, fairly good units. In the Tyranid codex, the Carnifex doesn't fall as far behind the other choices as the Wraithlord does behind the Eldar tanks.

[Durandal]

It was more to say that Carinies are slightly too much. I'm not saying they should be 90 points, but they cost more then a kitted out Prism, which seems a lot for a 4 wound T6 melee unit that can't get cover as easy.
Hell, another point- an 8 man squad of sternguard can kill a carnie in a single RF turn, cost the same, and are more versatile. Which is my point, how versatile is this very expensive monster you are buy? Naked, it isn't that great, it gets rerolls to hit, but it still has to get to something, and a single T6 model isn't hard to take down at range (use those kraks missiles you have for mechs). So then do we buy the upgrades, making it more expensive, or just spend the points on something else?
More to the point, it means the people with 6 carnifexs couldn't use a couple because the options changed, couldn't use another 2 because it isn't point effective at best, and have to go get new kits to build/convert the new, more useful options.

And let's be fair, Falcons were godly because they took advantage of every rule they could in 4th :P .

[spediesteban422]

I honestly think they were tired of people exploiting certain models (mostly the dakkafex) and wanted to keep that from happening again. They did a fairly good job, although they made a lot of things that used to be OP (fexes, flyrants, ect.) very VERY hard to use effectively.

Sure, they made some big changes to make a crapton more money (broodlord buff, completely changing the troop balance (spines to termies, gargoyle spams, ect) but they DID buff the models.

If you're looking for customization, there is over one metric crap-ton of different army styles you can build. Just look at every new unit (save pyrovore, because that guy deserves no love). Special characters are fun to use, Tyrannofex makes you think about what your MCs should be doing, tervigon has spawned (HA!) a ton of different strategies, trygon/mawloc have added a whole new element of thinking to strategy, hive guard have added some much needed anti-heavy (I'd say they are infinitely better than the old sniperfex) and the changes to old units make them basically not the same units at all.

Sure, you can't put 50 upgrades on your hormogaunts, but did you honestly want to? Since 2nd edition died the fun things you could do with biomorphs were almost gone, except saying just how much you wanted to customize something (like how many biomorphs you wanted on your flyrant or if you wanted to give your fex an extra point of something with your leftovers).

They won't remake the codex, so stop QQing