[Black Templar][2000 Pt][Friendly]

[MGRockwell]

Out of this one and the 1000 Pt one, this one is the most important one to me. I'd rather receive comments on it.

Some concerns I have are:
A)Lack of mobility, however I have two hard hitting reserves with the drop pod dreadnought and the teleporting 5 man shooty terminators.
B)High points in very few models (main concern)

However, I think the list shines in how strong each unit is, balancing out what is being targeted. It has plenty of both anti-armor, anti-MEQ and anti-horde. I have the tornado for either a cheap sacrifice to pump assault cannon rounds into something or to jet between cover spots to grab objective. I've had a lot of success with drop pods, especially with units that do well shooting, as they can really bust up the back of someone's army and force them to split their movement - or at least make a decision on where they are going. Grimaldus and retinue will go with the 20 man squad making for a 24 man re-rolling fest. The termi chap goes with my 6x terminators giving 4 models re-rolls on to-hit and to-wound - as well as the thunder hammers and the chap himself which is no slouch.

Let's not forget the LRC. I plan to only keep my terminators in there for a turn or so and then disembark them so that they don't get stuck in it, then they can walk up behind it while it lights up the front of the enemy.

Anyway, let me know what you think. I'll probably use this list on Monday unless we have to go teams and then I'll use my 1000 point.

HQ

Emperor's Champion
-Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

Chaplain Grimaldus
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Master-crafted Plasma Pistol
3x Cenobyte Servitors

Master of Sanctity
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Terminator Armour
-Storm Bolter

TROOPS

10x Initiates
-Powerfist
-Meltagun
10x Neophytes
-20x Frag grenades

5 Initiates
-Lascannon
-Plasma Gun

ELITE

6x Terminators
-6x Furious Charge
IN
Landraider Crusader
-TL Assault Cannon
-Multi-melta
-6x TL Bolters
-Smoke Launchers

Dreadnought
-Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod
-Storm Bolter

5x Terminators
-2x Assault Cannons
-2x Chainfists

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator
-TL Lascannon
-2x Lascannon sponsons
-Smoke Launchers

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Tornado
Heavy Bolter
Assault Cannon

[Angelofblades]

HQ

Emperor's Champion
-Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

Chaplain Grimaldus
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Master-crafted Plasma Pistol
3x Cenobyte Servitors

Master of Sanctity
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Terminator Armour
-Storm Bolter


Recently I attempted creating a Grimaldus list. What I found out is that Grimaldus is all you need and is the answer to almost all the problems plagueing BT. Because of this the MoS is in excess. If your adamant about a 3rd HQ choice, a cheap Castellan w/ a combat shield should do. If truth be told, I wouldnt bother with the 3rd HQ choice.

TROOPS

10x Initiates
-Powerfist
-Meltagun
10x Neophytes
-20x Frag grenades

5 Initiates
-Lascannon
-Plasma Gun

You want to get the most out of Grimaldus, and a single squad of 20 isnt going to cut it. The problem with lower unit counts (note i said [/i]unit[/i] not [/i]model[/i]) is that your opponent can focus fire. Spread out with at least 3 more Crusader squads meant for CC, and one back up one for shooty support.

ELITE

6x Terminators
-6x Furious Charge
IN
Landraider Crusader
-TL Assault Cannon
-Multi-melta
-6x TL Bolters
-Smoke Launchers

FC is wasted on a unit busting out of a LRC, as they are considered to have frag grenades, thus your all striking at the same I anyways. If your looking for that +1S, I would change the vow.

Dreadnought
-Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod
-Storm Bolter

So its got one turn to live, the turn it shows up basically. No EA, no Sl...trying to skim on points? You might as well drop this completely if your going to half ass it.

5x Terminators
-2x Assault Cannons
-2x Chainfists

This is obviously the dump of your points besides the HQ slot. My philosophy is that its the Troops that make the army, everything else supports them. This is why we have 6 troop slots, not 3.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator
-TL Lascannon
-2x Lascannon sponsons
-Smoke Launchers

Lack of mobility for this one, not to forget lack of Extra armor. You probably did that on purpose, trying to squeeze points out. Sl/EA are somethings that SM vehicles should never leave the garage without.

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Tornado
Heavy Bolter
Assault Cannon

Overall, the low model and unit count will hurt you badly. It definately needs revising

[MGRockwell]

HQ

Emperor's Champion
-Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

Chaplain Grimaldus
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Master-crafted Plasma Pistol
3x Cenobyte Servitors

Master of Sanctity
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Terminator Armour
-Storm Bolter


Recently I attempted creating a Grimaldus list. What I found out is that Grimaldus is all you need and is the answer to almost all the problems plagueing BT. Because of this the MoS is in excess. If your adamant about a 3rd HQ choice, a cheap Castellan w/ a combat shield should do. If truth be told, I wouldnt bother with the 3rd HQ choice.

This also forces me to bunch all of my units around one point. I have the second chaplain for Litanies of Hate on 4 lightning claw terminators. 16x (2 base + 1 2x CCW +1 charge) re-roll to hit re-roll to wound power weapon swings on charge isn't too bad, not to mention the chaplains 5 (3 base + 1 termi + 1 charge) and the thunder hammer 4 re-rolling on hits. Plus, terminator chaplain just looks so sweet...

TROOPS

10x Initiates
-Powerfist
-Meltagun
10x Neophytes
-20x Frag grenades

5 Initiates
-Lascannon
-Plasma Gun

You want to get the most out of Grimaldus, and a single squad of 20 isnt going to cut it. The problem with lower unit counts (note i said [/i]unit[/i] not [/i]model[/i]) is that your opponent can focus fire. Spread out with at least 3 more Crusader squads meant for CC, and one back up one for shooty support.

This is something I've thought of, but it is a friendly list, and I love the look of terminators.

ELITE

6x Terminators
-6x Furious Charge
IN
Landraider Crusader
-TL Assault Cannon
-Multi-melta
-6x TL Bolters
-Smoke Launchers

FC is wasted on a unit busting out of a LRC, as they are considered to have frag grenades, thus your all striking at the same I anyways. If your looking for that +1S, I would change the vow.

I don't see how counting as having frag grenades changes your initiative unless you are attacking a unit in cover? Also like I said, I will most likely pop the terminators out before getting right up next to the front lines of the enemy to avoid a lascannon or assault cannon popping both my LRC and 6 terminators plus an HQ

Dreadnought
-Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod
-Storm Bolter

So its got one turn to live, the turn it shows up basically. No EA, no Sl...trying to skim on points? You might as well drop this completely if your going to half ass it.

I really disagree with you on this one. Since it is in drop pod I can disembark on a side where only one of their units can see me, as long as I play my cards right. Generally I like to do this near a troop of the enemy so that I can shoot at something with the assault cannon and flamer when it lands and (hopefully) blow it up. Then the next turn I have 12" to get to to the troops that ties them up in CC - or if I can maneuver keep 'slicing the pie' to ping things off with the assault cannon. EA is only useful in a fraction of shots that a) hit b) glance - think about how many times you get crew stunned - in the past 4 games I don't think I've seen anyone get it. Nor have I played nightfight.

5x Terminators
-2x Assault Cannons
-2x Chainfists

This is obviously the dump of your points besides the HQ slot. My philosophy is that its the Troops that make the army, everything else supports them. This is why we have 6 troop slots, not 3.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator
-TL Lascannon
-2x Lascannon sponsons
-Smoke Launchers

Lack of mobility for this one, not to forget lack of Extra armor. You probably did that on purpose, trying to squeeze points out. Sl/EA are somethings that SM vehicles should never leave the garage without.

Sl are useless if you aren't playing nightfight, and EA useless except for a 1/6 chance on a glance table. So the chances that a single lascannon fired by a marine has of making EA do anything it is 1/2 (to hit)*1/6 (to glance 9+roll of 4 only)*1/6 (to give crew stunned). 1/72...

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Tornado
Heavy Bolter
Assault Cannon

Overall, the low model and unit count will hurt you badly. It definately needs revising

Like I said, low model count might make things interesting, but I think that all the units I have in there are both powerful and fairly survivable. Thank you for the comments but obviously some of them I disagree with

[Angelofblades]

Just to clarify; When I say SL, I mean Smoke Launchers, I could care less about Search Lights, lol.







HQ

Emperor's Champion
-Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

Chaplain Grimaldus
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Master-crafted Plasma Pistol
3x Cenobyte Servitors

Master of Sanctity
-Crozius Arcanum
-Rosarius
-Terminator Armour
-Storm Bolter


Recently I attempted creating a Grimaldus list. What I found out is that Grimaldus is all you need and is the answer to almost all the problems plagueing BT. Because of this the MoS is in excess. If your adamant about a 3rd HQ choice, a cheap Castellan w/ a combat shield should do. If truth be told, I wouldnt bother with the 3rd HQ choice.

This also forces me to bunch all of my units around one point. I have the second chaplain for Litanies of Hate on 4 lightning claw terminators. 16x (2 base + 1 2x CCW +1 charge) re-roll to hit re-roll to wound power weapon swings on charge isn't too bad, not to mention the chaplains 5 (3 base + 1 termi + 1 charge) and the thunder hammer 4 re-rolling on hits. Plus, terminator chaplain just looks so sweet...

Then why use the expensive Chappy? Whats wrong with the reclusiarch? You already know you're strapped on points, thus stick with the reclusiarch. As you talk about bunching. What do you think 20 models in a units is? Is that not bunching either? If your going to miss heaven, why miss it by inches?

[MGRockwell]

When am I going to not be firing when I'm using a drop pod? If I don't get it out til turn 3 and I pop smoke now I really only have 3 effective turns anyway, and let's not forget that smoke doesn't mean invulnerable. How is that better than just taking my first turn to shoot? If I was going to footslog the dread up the board I would definitely get smoke-launchers on it, on top of that my predator does have smoke-launchers, which is why I thought you were talking about searchlights.

I might move my chappy down to reclusiarch ... don't know exactly how much 15 points spread out would help me much though.

To have 3 units within 6" seems like bunching to me, I can spread 20 men out - and have my other units work on other areas if needed without worrying about keeping them close to Grimaldus. You're taking troops to benefit from unmatched zeal which wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have a bunch of troops.

I still think extra armor is pretty worthless.

[Footslogger]

When am I going to not be firing when I'm using a drop pod? If I don't get it out til turn 3 and I pop smoke now I really only have 3 effective turns anyway, and let's not forget that smoke doesn't mean invulnerable. How is that better than just taking my first turn to shoot? If I was going to footslog the dread up the board I would definitely get smoke-launchers on it, on top of that my predator does have smoke-launchers, which is why I thought you were talking about searchlights.



you may find the dreadnought has nothing in sight, then the opponent moves something scary into sight, but its his turn so he gets to shoot and kill your dred. if only you'd had smoke launchers to fire that turn where you could se enothing you might have survived.

ok this is going to be rare but for 3 points its not a big loss to take smokeys.

You are massively low on numbers and in short it must be adressed or you will struggle at this point level.
YOu have so much invested in your hq, elites and the lrc, they should be trimmed down to get some more troops. and go accept any challenge as your vow unless you are against an incredibly psyker heavy force.

[MGRockwell]

My point was that in a drop pod I get to pick where I am. Sure I can drift off a foot - but there are ways to strategically place the dread so that this isn't as big of a deal.

It should be noted that I have 17 guys in power armor, 14 guys in 4+ armor, 12 guys in terminator armor, 2 heavies a speeder and a walker. This doesn't seem ridiculously low to me, but maybe that is just because of who I play against.

I think that my superior damage capabilities - as well as the survivability of terminators will pull me through .

My other desirable option would be to buy 5 more marines, 5 more scouts and replace the shooty terminators with another footslogging 15 man force (about the same in points). My issue with this is that assault cannons and storm bolters do a pretty good job of cleaning up both vehicles (rending ass can shots) and large numbers of troops not to mention having 2 chainfists and 3 powerfists in close combat. Whereas the only options I'd have with the troops is to get up close for both of those options. Also, for destroying vehicles the only real way I'm going to get them is to pop them with my powerfist or my one shot before charge with the meltagun.

I'll tell you guys what though - I'll play tomorrow and see how it works out and report back!

Contingent upon me playing by myself 2000 points instead of on a team 1000 each.