Space Marines [1000 pts] - help?

[Eryx_UK]

My problem is that I cannot seem to get my head around building a viable SM force. Heres what I currently have prepared. It comes in at just under 1000 pts.

My main opponents thus far have been Chaos (Black Legion & World Eaters - both old codex), Tyranids and Eldar. Chaos beat me every time and I managed a draw against Tyranid & Eldar.

Be brutal here please. I need the help.

Thanks.

-

HQ:

Master/Commander.
Terminator armour. Terminator honours. Storm bolter. Power weapon. Frag grenades.

Command Squad.
Sarge plus 4 marines.
Bolter. Frag grenades. 1x Plasma cannon.
Company standard bearer & company champion.

Rhino.
Storm bolter. Pintle-mounted storm bolter. Searchlight.

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad #1.
Sarge plus 9 marines.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter. 1x Meltagun. Frag grenades.

Tactical Squad: #2.
Sarge plus 9 marines.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter. 1x Meltagun. Frag grenades.

ELITE:

Dreadnought.
Multimelta. Missile launcher. Venerable. Searchlight.

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator Destructor.
Turrent-mounted autocannon. 2x Heavy bolters. Searchlight. Hunter-Killer Missile. Extra armour.

-

A few notes:

1. I know the commander cannot use the rhino, but I figure it makes cover and I had the points spare.

2. The dreadnought is geared for anti-vehicle.

3. My Predator seems to die very early on in almost every game (except against Tyranids).

[Flyinfart]

Something to keep in mind about vehicles is that the more you have, the more likely they are to survive. The troops choices- your mixing of meltas and heavy bolters is not particularly good. Dropping the storm bolter on the rhino would give you 10pts to spend elsewhere.

Why make the dreadnought venerable and not give it a veteran skill?
On the Sarges, giving them powerfists or power weapons to take advantage of their high number of attacks would be another smart move.

The command squad... yeah. If its accompanying the Commander, it should be an assault oriented squad. Don't put heavy weapons or bolters in it, instead use bolt pistols+ccw and perhaps put a meltagun or flamer in the command squad.

I understand the use of mixed squads, but your squads seem almost assault oriented with heavy weapons in them. Thats not a combination that should be used, it ends up just making the squad that much less effective.

[Angelofblades]

HQ:

Master/Commander.
Terminator armour. Terminator honours. Storm bolter. Power weapon. Frag grenades.

I believe your commander may be illegal. Models in Terminator armor have restricted access to wargear. Right off the bat, frag grenades + terminator armor + T. Honors is what tipped me off. I would drop the T armor, and settle for an Iron halo instead. If truth be told, I would drop the master totally and instead use a Reclusiarch. But if you are set on the Master, I would use the Captain instead. So your HQ choice would look like. But if you really want to save on point, I would actually just arm him with a combat shield instead.

Captain
Iron Halo
T. Honors
Bolt Pistol
Power weapon


Command Squad.
Sarge plus 4 marines.
Bolter. Frag grenades. 1x Plasma cannon.
Company standard bearer & company champion.

I would drop the command squad, 1000pts does not validate the use of such a unit, your better off spending points in your core choices.

Rhino.
Storm bolter. Pintle-mounted storm bolter. Searchlight.

Which means you can drop this too

TROOPS:

Tactical Squad #1.
Sarge plus 9 marines.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter. 1x Meltagun. Frag grenades.

Tactical Squad: #2.
Sarge plus 9 marines.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter. 1x Meltagun. Frag grenades.

Again at 1k pts does not justify the need for full 10 marine squads. 7-8 marines will suffice just as well. Now since it doesnt seem like your using traits, I would not add heavy weapons to either of these units. It limits the rapid fire capabilities of the unit when they come out of the Rhino's, which means I would add Rhino's for both of these units. Reason being, since your using a Melta gun- short ranged, your better off mounting them in Rhino's w/ extra armor + Smoke Launchers.

After you do that, if your worried about ranged support, I would try to add in a 5 man scout squad w/ 3 sniper rifles, a ML, and a bolter.

ELITE:

Dreadnought.
Multimelta. Missile launcher. Venerable. Searchlight.

Again too much focus on upgrades, drop the melta, and the ML, stick with the good ole ass can and DCCW, give it smoke launchers, and extra armor, drop venerable and the searchlight.

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator Destructor.
Turrent-mounted autocannon. 2x Heavy bolters. Searchlight. Hunter-Killer Missile. Extra armour.

I like the set up of this unit, but I would drop the HKM, I dont understand why your taking searchlights, I would drop those too, and add smoke launchers instead.

I'm not sure how many more points you would save, but I would add in a Tornado if you could, I'm sure you could. You have a good starter list, but have too many redundant upgrades. It seems like your initial sttrategy is more of a shit and shoot one, this strategy always fails in the face of adversity, I wouldnt rely on it too much, instead go for a more mobile strategy. Which would ultimately mean an assault squad may be in order for the army, just to give it that extra punch during the assault phase. If your worried about the survivability of Rhino's, utilize terrain to hide them. Check the Terrain Tactica to find out more on how to fully utilize terrain.

[Lemartes]

I don't really have time to critique your whole army right now, but 1 thing I would do is give the Dread a Drop pod, just drop in behind tanks and melt their asses...

[Eryx_UK]

Why make the dreadnought venerable and not give it a veteran skill?

Venerable grants me a reroll on the damage table, yes? That to me is worth having it. Am I wrong there?



Again at 1k pts does not justify the need for full 10 marine squads. 7-8 marines will suffice just as well.

This is something that I see on these forums quite often, but to be honest it makes little sense to me. A 10 man squad can unleash a lot of fire upon the enemy. Smaller squads seem less useful and far easier to kill off. Does that make sense or is it a noobie response?


Now since it doesnt seem like your using traits, I would not add heavy weapons to either of these units. It limits the rapid fire capabilities of the unit when they come out of the Rhino's, which means I would add Rhino's for both of these units. Reason being, since your using a Melta gun- short ranged, your better off mounting them in Rhino's w/ extra armor + Smoke Launchers.

It does limit but in my experience both recently and when I played 40K over ten years ago, heavy weapons are a vital piece of a force simply for the damage that they can do.
The Meltaguns, yeah, but heavy bolters are a must for marines, surely?


Again too much focus on upgrades, drop the melta, and the ML, stick with the good ole ass can and DCCW, give it smoke launchers, and extra armor, drop venerable and the searchlight.

Interesting. Can I ask why go CC with the dreadnought. They strike me as being better ranged support. The few times I have tried a CC dreadnought it was destroyed far too easily.


I like the set up of this unit, but I would drop the HKM, I dont understand why your taking searchlights, I would drop those too, and add smoke launchers instead.

Searchlights are 1pt, and I always have a couple unspendable points over. They are last minute add-ons. Consider them dropped.
I've never bothered with a H/K before but lately I feel that having one might save me a lot of trouble, due to the regular armies I face against.


You have a good starter list, but have too many redundant upgrades. It seems like your initial sttrategy is more of a shit and shoot one, this strategy always fails in the face of adversity, I wouldnt rely on it too much, instead go for a more mobile strategy.

I hate CC. I always lose at it, from either crap dice rolls or cruel fate and tactics. I much prefer to blast the snot out of my opponents at range before they get anywhere near me.

-

Thank you guys for your advice. I'll see what I can do with my force. I think, by looks of it, I need to try and move beyond the comfort zone that I have.

[ManusMarines]

1) Venerable Dreadnoughts are indeed nice to have, but at 1000pts its a bit of a point sink. Sure it doesn't seem like alot, but those points can be better spent in other places.

2) 10 Man marine squads essentially do the same work as an 8 man squad. Having smaller squads also means you can field more scoring units for the same price. Having 2 large squads is nice, but having 3-4 smaller squads that each can claim objectives and such is better. By dropping that command squad and 1 marine from each existing squad you can make a third squad. Remember, games aren't just about killing enemy units, they are also about completing the assigned objectives. More scoring units, the better.

3) Heavy weapons are vital, yes. But make sure to pair Heavy/Special weapons appropriately. A unit with a long range anti-infantry and a short range anti-tank just doesn't mix, as until the enemy gets close you are wasting shots. LasCannons/Plasma guns pair well, or even just taking a Heavy Bolter or Missle launcher for stationary shooting is alright.

4) CC Dreadnoughts can be vicious. Remember, you're getting 6 24" shots with the standard Dreadnought, 4 of which can insta-kill or even work well against light/medium armor. 3 attacks on the charge from what amounts to a Monstrous Creature in CC is nothing to laugh at.

[Angelofblades]

[quote=Flyinfart]
Why make the dreadnought venerable and not give it a veteran skill?

Venerable grants me a reroll on the damage table, yes? That to me is worth having it. Am I wrong there?

No, but consider the points limit. Also at least understand that I'm coming from a quantity over quality perspective. At 1000pts it is best to withhold frivolous points spending.



Again at 1k pts does not justify the need for full 10 marine squads. 7-8 marines will suffice just as well.

This is something that I see on these forums quite often, but to be honest it makes little sense to me. A 10 man squad can unleash a lot of fire upon the enemy. Smaller squads seem less useful and far easier to kill off. Does that make sense or is it a noobie response?

No, its not a noobie response, but take into account unit effectiveness vs points effectiveness. Ofcourse a 10 man unit does dish out more firepower than an 8 man unit, but at 1000pts, the points you save by dropping a total of 4 marines (60 pts) are points that can be spent better elsewhere. Basically it is the compromise between having a unit strong enough to dish out firepower equal to that of a 10 man squad, while saving as much points as you can elsewhere.


Now since it doesnt seem like your using traits, I would not add heavy weapons to either of these units. It limits the rapid fire capabilities of the unit when they come out of the Rhino's, which means I would add Rhino's for both of these units. Reason being, since your using a Melta gun- short ranged, your better off mounting them in Rhino's w/ extra armor + Smoke Launchers.

It does limit but in my experience both recently and when I played 40K over ten years ago, heavy weapons are a vital piece of a force simply for the damage that they can do.
The Meltaguns, yeah, but heavy bolters are a must for marines, surely?

ofcourse this is coming from totally different disciplines of fighting style. I wage war aggressively, all my armies and tactics have been built to bully my opponent, and limit their movement, controlling the game, using combinations of long range shooting, mid range, close range and well placed close combat charges, with nothing but the most devastating of units leading my charges. In my eyes, I'd rather take control of the game, and dictate how things go, than play a passive role, and have my opponent dictate the pace of the game. Once you loose control of the game, you loose the game imho.


Again too much focus on upgrades, drop the melta, and the ML, stick with the good ole ass can and DCCW, give it smoke launchers, and extra armor, drop venerable and the searchlight.

Interesting. Can I ask why go CC with the dreadnought. They strike me as being better ranged support. The few times I have tried a CC dreadnought it was destroyed far too easily.

Versatility is key imho. Don't be fooled into thinking that the ass can dread is solely for CC purposes, in reality its not, it is a mid-close range fire support unit, meant for supporting your tac squads, and cc relief. Meaning should your tac squads be charged, you can throw the dread in there to offer help, which is what it was designed for imho.


I like the set up of this unit, but I would drop the HKM, I dont understand why your taking searchlights, I would drop those too, and add smoke launchers instead.

Searchlights are 1pt, and I always have a couple unspendable points over. They are last minute add-ons. Consider them dropped.
I've never bothered with a H/K before but lately I feel that having one might save me a lot of trouble, due to the regular armies I face against.


You have a good starter list, but have too many redundant upgrades. It seems like your initial sttrategy is more of a shit and shoot one, this strategy always fails in the face of adversity, I wouldnt rely on it too much, instead go for a more mobile strategy.

I hate CC. I always lose at it, from either crap dice rolls or cruel fate and tactics. I much prefer to blast the snot out of my opponents at range before they get anywhere near me.

-

Thank you guys for your advice. I'll see what I can do with my force. I think, by looks of it, I need to try and move beyond the comfort zone that I have.[/quote:w6f45s7y]

I would deign you to try this list:

Reclusiarch: - 122
Bolt Pistol
T. Honors
Frag grenades
Jump packs

His role is already self explanatory, from the fact that he has jump packs, a unit already becomes evident in this list: An Assault squad.

Dreadnought - 138
Asscan
DDCW
Storm bolter
EA
Smoke Launchers
Venerable

I kept venerable, since you felt so attached to it, but use him to back up the tac squads as they rumble forwards, using the rhino's to screen for the dread as it makes it's advance up the table. Alternatively, if you feel insecure about the anti-tank power of your list, you can drop the venerable for a TLLC.

8 Man tac squad - 188
Melta
Rhino
EA
SL (Smoke Launchers)

8 Man tac squad - 188
Plasma Gun
Rhino
EA
SL

Both units, while it seems are meant for different purposes, actually are meant to act as a single vessel. Both complement each other's failings, the melta unit is made for hunting tanks, while the Plasma gun is used for troop hunting, use both units in conjunction and synergy occurs, throw the support offered by the dread, and you have a very stable core, with a counter-charge option. Also note the over all mobility of just these 3 units, were not even taking into account the Chappy just yet.

Pred Destructor
Hvy Bolters
EA
SL

Just a mobile gun platform, great for taking out infantry and light-medium armor. This is your long range support, but keep it mobile, as it has that option to be.

Land Speeder Tornado:
Asscan/ Hy bolter

This has always been a great gunship. The firepower support it offers greatly complements the twin tac squads driving up the field. Its uses are almost unlimited, but better used for troop hunting. It makes a great backup for the dread, should it find itself pre-occupied in combat. Again the focus here is mobility, over static.

6 man Assault squad
Vet
Power fist

This is where the chappy goes, taking into account the chappy already comes with a power weapon, I felt like the power fist would be much more handy instead. You must use this unit sparingly, while it can be labeled a "kill unit," take note that combat must happen when you want it to, on your terms. Meaning that this unit must make but one well placed charge, on your terms, under your own conditions. One of the keys of this list is the fact that at no point in time can your army ever be split. It uses a blitz style tactic, but you blitz at the right time, dont go jumping the gun.

[Eryx_UK]

Thank you AngelofBlades. Thats given me a fair bit to think about.

[Eryx_UK]

Bearing in mind figures that I currently have (no land speeders at present, for instance), how does this set up look?

-

HQ.

Reclusiarch.
Crozius Arcanum. Rosarious. Bolt pistol. Terminator honours. Frag grenades. Jump pack.
Pts: 122.

TROOPS.

Tactical Squad 1.
8 man squad.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter.
Rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers.
Pt:s 183.

Tactical Squad 2.
8 man squad.
Bolter. 1x Plasma cannon.
Rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers.
Pts: 198

Scout Squad 1.
6 man squad.
Sniper rifle. 1x Missile launcher.
Pts: 100.

ELITE.

Dreadnought.
Twin-linked lascannon. Close combat weapon with storm bolter. Smoke launchers. Extra armour.
Pts: 133.

FAST ATTACK.

Assault Squad.
6 man squad.
Bolt pistol. Close combat weapon. Frag grenades. Jump pack.
Pts: 132.

HVY SUPPORT.

Predator Destructor.
Turret mounted autocannon. 2x Heavy bolter. Extra Armour. Smoke launchers.
Pts: 118.

Total: 986.

-

[Beast]

Nice! Although, I'm a newbie still without a single battle on my shoulders ( :oops: ), I think that this is a good list.
I'd like to equip my dread like yours, but from I've heard here, it's an "hybrid" configuration that may not be the best (but I know, that sooner or later I'll have one with those options :evil: ). Perhaps, you may use a standard Dread (asscan+DCCW) and buy a pred annihilator with las spons.

[jedihobbit]

I love using Chappy and a Assault squad in 1000pt games...just don't leave them in the open where they can be shot to pecies. Dread with Assaultcannon and DCCW is a great unit for the points, ecspecialy in 500-750pt games...that was when i still played loyal marines, now all i have is a crappy metal one that kills my own dudes :(

[Terminator]

I think both your earlier and latter lists are good overall - the only thing earlier is to get rid of that command squad, which you did. I like the 8-10 man squads and personally use mixed special/heavy weapons and a long-ranged dreadnought to great effect, so keep and open mind to find out what works for you.

[scythes]

The new list looks a lot better, but a few suggestions for you....

Don't forget the bolt pistol on the chappy, it's only 1 point but you do still have to pay for it since he doesn't come with it.

The tactical squads don't work well with the rhinos. A heavy bolter in 1 and plasma cannon in 1 work ok, but if you charge them forward in the rhino then jump out, you can't shoot the heavy weapons. If you want static tac squads who hang out and shoot but don't move much, I'd suggest adding plasma guns to both of those, dropping a marine from each bringing them down to 7 and dropping the rhinos because they won't do much except block LoS, and terrain can do that for free. With all of that, if you have more models, you could take a whole nother tac squad, maybe a predator or another dreadnought. Or, if you're out of models, you could toss in the captain with a jump pack and power weapon or fist and stick him with the assault squad anf chappy.

That was all based off of you saying you wanted to sit back and shoot stuff while it came to you. If you have decided to change that up and take the fight to them, I'd just drop the Heavy bolter and plasma cannon and give them special weapons, like said above, 1 plasma gun, 1 meltagun. Also, termy honours for the sgts and power fists. Since sgts can't be singled out like IC's, it's almost like haveing a power fist model with 8 wounds, though the rest of the squad does good damage too.

I like the scout squad, cheap and causes a lot of problems for a lot of different armies. Pinning is a pain. Don't forget if you shoot a vehicle with the missile launcher to shoot the sniper rifles too. It's unlikely they'll do anything but it's still possible to pop light armor with them.

I use my dread as a mobile weapons platform to support my tac squads but I set mine up differently. An assault cannon is one of the best weapons in 40k so I'd keep that and switch the dccw for a missile launcher. I see a dread a lot like a fex, slow and only a few attacks, it looks really cool and can kill stuff easily, but tough to get into combat.

I love assault squads, I might bump them up one more to 7, get a vet sgt and give him a power fist to kill the big stuff, and add a couple plasma pistols or flamers. Either or will do you very well though I like specializing so I don't prefer to use both.

The predator looks good too.

The problem with the first list is you were trying to put in too many upgrades and not enough models. A few upgrades are good as long as you don't go overboard and as long as they compliment what the army needs.

[Eryx_UK]

Thanks again for the advice.
I've dropped the two Rhino transports and used the points to upgrade the Assault sarge terminator honours and powerfist, and to buy a smaller 6 man tac squad.

-

HQ.

Reclusiarch.
Crozius Arcanum. Rosarious. Bolt pistol. Terminator honours. Frag grenades. Jump pack.
Pts: 122.

TROOPS.

Tactical Squad 1.
8 man squad.
Bolter. 1x Heavy bolter.
Pt:s 125.

Tactical Squad 2.
8 man squad.
Bolter. 1x Plasma cannon.
Pts: 140

Tactical Squad 3.
6 man squad.
Bolter. Frag grenades.
Pts: 95.

Scout Squad 1.
6 man squad.
Sniper rifle. 1x Missile launcher.
Pts: 100.

ELITE.

Dreadnought.
Twin-linked lascannon. Close combat weapon with storm bolter. Smoke launchers. Extra armour.
Pts: 133.

FAST ATTACK.

Assault Squad.
6 man squad.
Bolt pistol. Close combat weapon. Frag grenades. Jump pack.
Sarge: Terminator honours. Power fist.
Pts: 132.

HVY SUPPORT.

Predator Destructor.
Turret mounted autocannon. 2x Heavy bolter. Extra Armour. Smoke launchers.
Pts: 118.

Total: 995.

-

[scythes]

This list looks ok but your assault squad will be a bit out there on their own. Granted, they're tough, but they will be on their own. I think the only thing I'd change here is adding a heavy weapon to the 3rd tac squad and maybe plasma guns to the 3 tac squads. You can pay for most of this by dropping a marine or 2 from the 1st two tac squads bringing them to 7 or 6. If your goal is firepower you want bigger guns shooting, a bunch of bolters is always good but a bunch of missile launcers and plasma guns is even better. Nice list though, quite a bit more useable than the 1st one.

[Eryx_UK]

As is my luck, the new force died horribly again. Heh.

Toniht saw my opponent field a (new codex) Chaos army, with two dedicated Lascannon Predators and two Rhinos with havoc launches. Even with cover my men where being mowed down by the lascannon fire and his attack dice were far better than mine. The havoc lauches failed him big time thankfully. The assault squad died first, being the target of anything that could shot it before it hit the enemy.

I think I need a likewise Lascannon heavy Predator to help deal with enemy tanks.

[Angelofblades]

explain to me how terrain is dealt with?

How about mission, mission level?

Do you feel like you are in control of the game?

What was your opponent's army list?

Maybe you could post for us a battle report of what's happening?

[Starscream]

You shouldnt have lost so bad if you had better tactics.

First off, the list that AOB crafted for you with the rhinos is almost exactly what I run, as he knows, but since I have traits I have a few more special weapons etc.

Second, the reason you got shot to hell was the fact that you foot slogged it. The rhinos would have prevented that.

Finally please answer AOB's questions above and then we can see what your tactics were.

My recommendations are add a TLLC to that pred and make it an annhilator, drop teh heavy weapons, add in rhinos and take special weapons on the tacts.

[Eryx_UK]

explain to me how terrain is dealt with?

I'm not sure how you mean. If you mean how was terrain laid out, my opponents side of the table had lots of hedges and a couple ruined buildings (farm sort of thing), and on my side was a small copse of trees, several walls/barracdes and two large ruins (city ruins). My side of the table was a bit more open than his I feel, but hey, you play with what you got.


How about mission, mission level?

Basic Alpha, no special rules. Mission was annihilation.


Do you feel like you are in control of the game?

At the start of the game I was a little phased by seeing two lascannon predators, but I felt that I had a very good chance. It was about half way through when I felt that confidence begin to slide. Some was perhaps tactics, some was bad dice rolls. Even my opponent agreed after the game that until the halfway point he thought it could have swung either way.


What was your opponent's army list?

I didn't see his written list, so I can't give full details, but he had a Daemon Prince as HQ, four squds of CSM (using a single heavy weapon per squad, like I was doing), two Rhino's with havoc launchers, and two lascannon predators. I might be missing something but I don't think so.

[Eryx_UK]

You shouldnt have lost so bad if you had better tactics.[/quotes]

Maybe, maybe not. I think that what I did was sound, but I freely admit that tactics are not my strong point.

[quote]First off, the list that AOB crafted for you with the rhinos is almost exactly what I run, as he knows, but since I have traits I have a few more special weapons etc.

Second, the reason you got shot to hell was the fact that you foot slogged it. The rhinos would have prevented that.

In this case, I don't think the Rhino's would have helped. They crumple far too easily under lascannon attack, and I would have been worse off. My opponent, despite having the rhinos, was footslogging as well. He used them as support, firing the havoc launchers.


My recommendations are add a TLLC to that pred and make it an annhilator, drop teh heavy weapons, add in rhinos and take special weapons on the tacts.[/quote:1excnpun]

I certainly do plan to make the Predator into an annihilator. I'm not so keen on losing the heavy weapons. They were the one thing that was keeping my opponent on guard, and without them I would have swarmed earlier on.

Truth be told, I was not expecting a vehicle heavy force such as my opponent played last night. He is normally, a much more infantry based player. So with that in mind, the army I fielded was sub-par anyway.
I have another game today against our other chaos player, so I shall try it out as it stands against him, then guage it and make changes.

[Angelofblades]

explain to me how terrain is dealt with?

I'm not sure how you mean. If you mean how was terrain laid out, my opponents side of the table had lots of hedges and a couple ruined buildings (farm sort of thing), and on my side was a small copse of trees, several walls/barracdes and two large ruins (city ruins). My side of the table was a bit more open than his I feel, but hey, you play with what you got.



So by going by your description, your terrain would have roughly looked something like this:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/jeng2/WHFB/terrain-1.jpg

Just a thought, can you see what's wrong with the picture? (assuming that the terrain you played looked roughly like that). If there's terrain on your deployment zone, and terrain on his deployment zone, then there's no man's land in the center. There's no terrain in the center to slow down the enemy, there's no terrain in the center to block LoS so that you could hide your vulnerable tanks to his anti-tank weaponry, and there's no way you could use terrain to maneuver around and split your enemy's army.

I'd entice you guys to try setting terrain like this:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/jeng2/WHFB/terrain-2.jpg

or:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/jeng2/WHFB/terrain-3.jpg

Basically you want to make the game more dynamic than just your opponent blindly rushing to your lines. Terrain setup allows this, then you can make better use of table top tactics. Because when its just terrain on one side, and terrain on the other side, with about 30" of no man's land in between, then there's no table top tactics involved, its just whoever can throw the most dice at each other...

Now dont misunderstand me in thinking that I'm telling you to set up terrain wholly like that;

For example, where I play at, we pick up the pieces of terrain were going to play with, enough to cover 1/4 of the table, then roll off for who gets to place the first terrain piece and alternate until there are no more terrain pieces. Also since your playing a 1k battle, your supposed to be playing on a 4X4 table size. Any larger and certain armies get a gross advantage. You should really check out the Terrain Tactica (http://www.40kforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=30713)




How about mission, mission level?

Basic Alpha, no special rules. Mission was annihilation.

Just a suggestion, but you should try rolling for mission and mission level, it makes things more interesting and random. Also you get used to playing with all the different rules




Do you feel like you are in control of the game?

At the start of the game I was a little phased by seeing two lascannon predators, but I felt that I had a very good chance. It was about half way through when I felt that confidence begin to slide. Some was perhaps tactics, some was bad dice rolls. Even my opponent agreed after the game that until the halfway point he thought it could have swung either way.

With terrain placed like how I suggested, you wouldnt have to worry about those lascannons so much because they would have to move to see, which would mean that if they moved, tne only one lascannon could shoot. You know what's the easiest way of defeating long range weapons? Not by charging them, but by denying them line of sight. They can't shoot when they can't see.



[quote=Starscream]You shouldnt have lost so bad if you had better tactics.[/quotes]

Maybe, maybe not. I think that what I did was sound, but I freely admit that tactics are not my strong point.

Thus we are trying to correct that. You may be thinking that its not right to have terrain make such a huge impact on the game, but you should look at it that its currently benefiting your opponent's more than you, the fact that his (chaos opponent) tanks need not move, thus always are able to open fire on you. Terrain makes the tactics, and sadly there's no tactics in rushing forwards while your heavy weapons just sit there opening fire all day long.


First off, the list that AOB crafted for you with the rhinos is almost exactly what I run, as he knows, but since I have traits I have a few more special weapons etc.

Second, the reason you got shot to hell was the fact that you foot slogged it. The rhinos would have prevented that.

In this case, I don't think the Rhino's would have helped. They crumple far too easily under lascannon attack, and I would have been worse off. My opponent, despite having the rhinos, was footslogging as well. He used them as support, firing the havoc launchers.

Rhino's have but one purpose in their lives, that is to get their contents from point A to point B. Using my terrain placement example, how much of an extended life expectancy would you give a Rhino, than from your terrain placement? In addition smoke launchers + extra armor greatly increase the survival rate of Rhino's. Remember that a Rhino is an APC, not a tank, also take into account how animal herds work (bear with me). Animals group into herds because there is strength in numbers, if your opponent only has a few lascannons and there are 2-3 Rhinos zooming up the field all popping smoke launchers, he'd have one hell of a time trying to kill all of them


My recommendations are add a TLLC to that pred and make it an annhilator, drop teh heavy weapons, add in rhinos and take special weapons on the tacts.

I certainly do plan to make the Predator into an annihilator. I'm not so keen on losing the heavy weapons. They were the one thing that was keeping my opponent on guard, and without them I would have swarmed earlier on.

I agree with switching the pred to a annihilator, but keep the heavy bolters. I also second the dropping of the heavy weapons. If you want a heavy weapon squad, get devastators. Remember that you buy the heavy weapon for the squad, not buy the squad because of the heavy weapon. Tac squads w/ heavy weapon are support squads, support squads need something to support, and bolters are better when they get to rapid fire, not single shot, thus a heavy weapon tac squad supporting a front ling special weapon squad is a great and solid combo, but do you notice your list doesnt have any front line tac squads...

Truth be told, I was not expecting a vehicle heavy force such as my opponent played last night. He is normally, a much more infantry based player. So with that in mind, the army I fielded was sub-par anyway.
I have another game today against our other chaos player, so I shall try it out as it stands against him, then guage it and make changes.[/quote:2zrip4fo]

Heavy vehicle force or not, a well balanced list should hae an honest chance against anything.

[Eryx_UK]

None of those maps represent what we played very well. We were playing lots of terrain so cover was very prevalent. It's hard to explain the layout but there was no no-man's-land in the middle. We also played from the short ends not the long.

[Angelofblades]

None of those maps represent what we played very well. We were playing lots of terrain so cover was very prevalent. It's hard to explain the layout but there was no no-man's-land in the middle. We also played from the short ends not the long.

Well I mean from how you described it, there was terrain on his side and there was terrain on your side, so that would mean, there was no terrain in the center. If you wouldn't mind, what did it look like then?

Also, why were you guys playing on the short ends?.

[Eryx_UK]

None of those maps represent what we played very well. We were playing lots of terrain so cover was very prevalent. It's hard to explain the layout but there was no no-man's-land in the middle. We also played from the short ends not the long.

Well I mean from how you described it, there was terrain on his side and there was terrain on your side, so that would mean, there was no terrain in the center. If you wouldn't mind, what did it look like then?

It's tough to describe. I'll try to do a picture (like you have done) when I get in from work tonight. It'll be easier than trying to describe.


Also, why were you guys playing on the short ends?.

Because we always have done, for some reason.

[Ares]

Warrenstorm, my wife, and I started out playing the wrong way on the table too. After we played at a hobby shop and they "learned us", my wife's tyranid army started winning all of a sudden. Go figure.

[scythes]

Playing on the long ends makes a pretty big difference to some armies. I played a pretty big battle one time, it was on a 8' x 4' table and was 3 vs 3. 3 IG armies, infantry with a couple tanks and a armoured company. The other side was 3 space marine armies. Well, it was the space marine players choice to play the long way, so all us guard guys could say was "You got it!" Granted, it was tough fitting 6000 points of guard into a 4' x 1' space, it was pretty tightly packed, but it was a slaughter from the beginning.

Long tables favor shooty types where as short tables favor cc type armies. Standard is 4' x 4' or 4' x 6' where you start on the long side.

[Eryx_UK]

*Does the happy dance!*

After posting earlier, one of the CSM (World Eaters) players came into my store and I challenged him. Took your advice on the terrain layout and rolled a Take & Hold mission. At the end of T6, I won with more squads within range of the central building.

I have to admit that it does make a sizeable difference. I think perhaps we play a more random terrain layout than most. I shall raise the change with the other players when they turn up tonight for more games.

During the game, the heavy weapons in the tac squads proved their worth. It took a couple turns to put them in place, but then they held their own.