Crisis Suit Weaponry

[Stell]

Ok so I pinched this from another forums I was floating about on, but I want to get some others peoples opinion on it. So sorry if you have read this before.

Basically it is regarding the 'Fireknife' is the be all and end all of crisis suit weaponry. I am now not so sure. Why ? Well basically because the weapons do go together well, but don't seem to be perfect. Example: how many turns do you leave your suit sitting back just popping off missiles and maybe 1 shot from the plasma rifle? With have 1 weapon long range and one mid you never get to use them to full effect.

I am now looking at crisis suit weapons as a 6" rule. If the 2 weapons I put on my suit don't have a range that is within 6" of each other I'll find something different to throw on.

Also Fireknife tends to be a jack of all trades. Why not make your suits specifically for certain roles or tasks within your army? Example: (twin-linked)TL missile pods , burns down skimmers and light vehicles. Heck using this 6" rule you could even give a suit a Fusion blaster and a flamer once the suit is done blasting tanks he can go toast some dev squads (the opposite to assault marines with melta bombs and power fists).


Lets start with a HQ or a suit that gets access to the 'Special Issue.'

CiB + ?? Most people go with something like the missile pod. With my new rule its a no no. Lets try a plasma rifle or even a burst cannon? I mean if you are close enough to fire the CiB might as well get another high Str shot out right? With plasma you've only got to go another 6" and you get to rapid fire.



This is probably one of my first serious posts, all my others have been asking noobie questions, posting army lists and throwing up some WiP minis for my Tau. I hope I worded this well enough for everyone to understand. Let me know what you think about the new 6" rule :D

P.S. I'm not saying Fireknife is bad, just that there could be more economical suit configurations.

[rehdjac]

In my HQ choices I have an up close Shas' O team and a stand off Shas' O team. The up close guys have appropraite weapon loads, the Cyclic Blaster, Burst Cannons, Plasma Gun and the Frag Launcher. No flamers though. They don't want to get that close.

The stand off team is what I've come to realize is refered to as Fireknives for whatever reason, though I had no intention of following, nor knowledge of, such conventions. It seems an obvious choice.

[Soundwave]

Hmm, thats actually a pretty good point there Stell. I think I migh reconfigure my commander to have the CIB + Plasma instead of the missile launcher.

By the way, I am a huge fan of the Deathrain config (the TL Missile Pods), I use at least one of these in just about any Tau list I make.

[Tyryt]

I agree, the fireknife is not the best use of the suits. Why? Because the Missile pod is not good against tough targets, only light ones.

TL plasma is about the best set up. If I need to take out things with light armor, then there are plenty of pulserifles and burst cannons.

Trasports are coming towards me, and since things can jump out and charge from anything I need S7 to take out, then Missile pods, again, arn't meaningful.

Any heavy vehicles are to be taken out by the skyrays and broadsides and hammerheads.

Crisis suits are there, for when there is a Crisis. they need to take out the heavy infantry that the regular troops can't deal with, 3+ and 2+ saves. To that end, the MP is utterly worthless

[immense010]

I've always used my suits as FB and PR. takes brilliant care of MEQs and any light tanks. FWs for light armoured ppl nd use XV88s for heavy vehicles

[YamiJoey]

Oh my god it didn't post. I will kill the server for its treason.

Basically, I went through each and every weapon combo a normal Crisis suit had access to (2 weapons and a Targeting Array/Multi-tracker.)

TLBurst Cannons: Anti-infantry, and very good at it.
TLFlamer: If, for some reason, you want to go into some kind of assault/chargey thing, sure. I wouldn't, though.
TLMissile Pods: Anti-light-tank. General set-up that can be used against everything.
TLPlasma Rifle: Anti-terminator. 18" range for 6 shots, they have to use their 5+ save or cover.
TLFusion Blaster: Flavour set-up only. Use Piranhas.
Burst Cannon/Flamer: If you want to go assaulty, again. Shoot them and keep moving at them. Flamer them, shoot them and charge at whatever's left.
Burst Cannon/Missile Pod: Personal favourite. Takes out side armour on vehicles, then unloads on the stuff that poors out a turn later.
Burst Cannon/Plasma Rifle: Similar to the DeathChain (TLBurst Cannon) only the Plasma Rifle gets some Insta-kills in.
Burst Cannon/Fusion Blaster: If you know you'll be getting Marines (Not Termy's) in Land Raiders or something.
Missile Pod/Plasma Rifle: "The Fireknife". Kills anything you want it to, but only does Termy's in well. Proper vehicles (non-transport) have a good chance of escaping its wrath, whilst there are simply so many Guardsmen, your measly four shots each will never be enough.
Missile Pod/Fusion Blaster: Takes out any kind of tank you need to. Personally, I hate it.
Plasma Rifle/Fusion Blaster: If you're against Terminator wielding Land Raiders, this could be the choice for you. Blow the Land Raiser up with a Fusion Blaster, run away a bit to stay out of range, then jump forwards and start insta-killing those Tactical Dreadnought Marines.

YJ

[immense010]

bit of an edit:

rapid fire isn't at half range, it's at 12". Common misconception that people make cause most rapid fire stuff has a 24" range. Otherwise it might make krootox worth taking.

[YamiJoey]

bit of an edit:

rapid fire isn't at half range, it's at 12". Common misconception that people make cause most rapid fire stuff has a 24" range. Otherwise it might make krootox worth taking.

It'd make Fire Warriors into the best unit in the game. 200 (ish) points for stuff that's unloading 24 - 5/5 shots from 21" away. That's almost the full range of a Bolter.

YJ

[spediesteban422]

would that make fire warriors 15" rapid fire range? i thought their max was 30"...

cyclic ion blaster- would be fun to use, but i wouldnt use competitivly

[YamiJoey]

would that make fire warriors 15" rapid fire range? i thought their max was 30"...

cyclic ion blaster- would be fun to use, but i wouldnt use competitivly

Yeah, but they run 6".

YJ

[Kaintheslayer1988]

would that make fire warriors 15" rapid fire range? i thought their max was 30"...

cyclic ion blaster- would be fun to use, but i wouldnt use competitivly
Rapid fire isn't "twice at half max range." Rapid fire is "twice at twelve inches."

[Stell]

TLPlasma Rifle: Anti-terminator. 18" range for 6 shots, they have to use their 5+ save or cover.

Why is it 6 shots ? wouldn't it only be 4 ? and yes at 12" (previously stated)




So, what do you guys think about the 6" rule?? Make much sense do you think?

[Mozric]

Well, not really.
Technically the only thing you should think about with the range is the shortest range out of the weapons you have.

It doesn't hurt you if something is longer range. If a missile pod is better than a burst cannon, it doesn't make the burst cannon preferable just because it's paired with a fusion blaster.

Remember, twin-linking a weapon doesn't get double shots, just lets you re-roll misses.


Personally, I take fireknife. I'm not entirely convinced it's the best...

Things I would take:
Plasma/Missile Pod - fireknife. Good at taking out light tanks. Good against infantry. Rapid fire plasma helps if the enemy is getting dangerously close to your lines.
Twin Linked Fusion Blaster - I tend to deep strike a monat with this and a shield gen in order to pop one of the enemy's expensive tanks.
Twin-linked Missile Pod - Long range means you should always be able to hide your suits behind cover or out of range of the enemy. Enhances survivability a lot. Doesn't do much damage though. It's only really worth it if you're sniping for tanks. And that's what railguns are for. So on second thoughts this isn't that good.
Plasma/Fusion - Both weapons have ap2, which is nice. you need to get within 12" to do damage, which is very risky, but if you survive to do this twice against terminators you should get your points back.

IMO Crisis suits as a whole don't have much firepower. They're not particularly effective against tanks but shooting tanks is the only way they'll get their points back. The way you need to use them is to keep them behind cover, do a little bit of damage to the enemy and keep them alive. They'll only help your victory points count if they survive until the end of the game.

One thing I'd note is that the special issue systems change things a bit. I like using CIB + Missile Pod. This is a good example of the 6" rule failing. According to that the Burst Cannon should be the optimum choice with the CIB. Burst cannon is 4 pts less and gets an extra shot. Firing alongside the CIB i'll admit that on average it will be very slightly better than the MIssile Pod. But you're not in 18" range of something every turn. Which is where the missile pod helps. If you can't hit something with the CIB, why not snipe a tank with the Missile Pod? Makes the missile pod much more useful than the Burst Cannon.

To be honest if I had enough HS slots I'd rather take an Ion Cannon Hammerhead than a few fireknife crisises.

[Stell]

I do agree with you Mozric, to some extent. I just think the suits have alot more potential with the right weapon choices. Also yes an Ion HH would be worth a couple o' Fireknifes.

Example: with the TL Fusion blaster suit, sure it is good for popping 1 or 2 tanks, but why not throw on a flamer ? I do know that alot of enemies will put alot of fire on to that suit once he has arrived behind their lines, but IF he walks away from it he could potentially hold a dev squad off for firing for 1 or more turns. Give them a blast of flame and why not charge in? Surely if you have blown up a tank and burnt some troops, if you stop them firing too .... thats alot of points 1 suit has made.

I am just trying to look at ways the get the MOST from suit weapon configurations.

[YamiJoey]

In all of my "That's A shots at B"" I was using 3 man squads, moving 6" then rapid Firing if possible.

If my original post would have gone through, there'd have been no confusion. *glared at evil corperations*

YJ

[freakonomist]

I think what stell is saying makes sense. Sure a MP has longer range and will be able to take shots when a burst cannon can't, but if you're looking to be in optimum range, then you'll likely only lose out on a turn of shooting as you close in on your opponent. Most games my suits are shooting infantry (for lack of light armor choices) so a plasma rifle and burst cannon makes a lot of sense for me.

....if only I had used magnets on my fireknives

[Tyryt]

the 18" range for the plasma was also taking into accoutn their movement I belive.

If you want massive fun suits... take a squad of broadises with plasma rifles, stabilizers, and multi-trackers. They obliterate squads of anything and are surprisingly mobile.

[immense010]

As for crisises i'd take 2 suits with PR and FB, and a team leader with TLPR and FB and take a HWMT instead of the normal version. also take 2 shield drones. that works out to 231 points, but makes em ideal for taking out:
pesky HQ choices,
Expensive units,
Heavy armoured units(termies especially),
Light vehicles.

Its the best unit imho, can easily pay back its points, and is a pain in the neck to kill.

[Mozric]

Example: with the TL Fusion blaster suit, sure it is good for popping 1 or 2 tanks, but why not throw on a flamer ? I do know that alot of enemies will put alot of fire on to that suit once he has arrived behind their lines, but IF he walks away from it he could potentially hold a dev squad off for firing for 1 or more turns. Give them a blast of flame and why not charge in? Surely if you have blown up a tank and burnt some troops, if you stop them firing too .... thats alot of points 1 suit has made.

I agree with you here.

With the TL-Fusion Blaster deep striking monat I'll either add on a Shield Gen or Flamer.
Shield Gen makes him a bit harder to kill, making it more annoying for the enemy and possibly giving you another shot at a tank if you screw up.
Flamer is cheaper -- the cheapest thing you can get IIRC, which is nice. It's useful if the enemy doesn't kill your crisis so you can go and do a little more damage, it's also good if you decide to deep-strike attack termies or something instead of a tank, might net you more kills.

[The_Peacemaker]

You have to figure out what you want your crisis suit to do, whats its role.

If you take vespids, spiner drones, then you have your AP 3 arsenal is covered. So your crisis suits are free for different roles.

The main reason FireKnife is so popular is that you don't know who your going to fight against. If you take short range weapons and you go against a shooty army....you either deepstrike(if mission allows) or run up the table wasting 2-3 turns moving before your in range to shoot. Missile pods at 36" range allows you to shoot things far away. And taking the plasma rifle is good because of the AP 2.

And since alot of armies are MEQ its always good to have low AP weapons around.

Anyway I want to talk about the flamer. many people discount its effectiveness because you ahve to get close and you'll just get assaulted.
If your gonna Twin Link a missile pod then you only have 1 hard point left. it makes sense to take a flamer. Its really cheap in points, most of the time you'll be fireing the missile pods but if the sneaky enemy gets close you can burn them up.
TL missle pod + flamer is a good cheap combo.

And as for the missile pod only being good against light armour: strength 7 can hurt armour 13. The only tanks that have armour 14 on all sides are land raiders and monoliths. The lemun russes have arour 14 but their side armour is weaker. With a crisis suits mobility its not very difficult to hit a tanks on the side or rear armour. Heck, I used to deep strike stealth suits to shoot the back armour on hidden tanks like basslisks and such.

Twin Linking a suit with a fusion blaster works very well, I used to have a shas'el with Twin Linked Fusion blaster and I deep striked it too kill tanks. Now with targeting array you can do this with a basic suit.

I really dislike useing burst cannons on my crisis suits. Main reason is that its the same strength and AP as a firewarrior weapon. And stealth suits already have burst cannons. The plasma + burst cannon combo probably works well but its kind of a waste when you have an abundance of other units that use the same weapon.

Crisis suits with Short range weapons like: Fusion & plasma, Fusion & flamer, Fusion & burst, etc... work very well when you have a kroot squad supporting the crisis team. You have to get close to use the weapons, depending on the enemy the kroot either rapid fire(killing more guys so the crisis suits don't get swarmed) or charge in allowing the crisis suits to escape, heh or the crisis suits charge in adding 3 strength 5 attacks to the kroots attacks. Again this all depends on the enemy. If your against termies you charge the kroot in and crisis suits run.

I really like the Tau, they are able to specialize but still be versatile.

[Miggidy Mack]

I've been pouring over my book for about an hour now...

I find no place that says a weapon has to be twin linked. Two Plasma Rifles would cost 40 points. They could (with support systems) fire twice in one round.

Or is this not an option?

[Stell]

P25 of your codex, it notes about the points for 2 weapons counting as TL

[Miggidy Mack]

Yes, that is indeed the cost for twin linked versions of the weapons. For instance, the plasma rifle is 20/30. So two non-twin linked weapons would be 40 points.

What am I missing?

[immense010]

once again ill have to stress the greatness of PR and FB.

Great for taking out just about anything. Although a bit on the costy side, take with a load of drones, and deep strike, you'll almost always survive the first wave of shooting if you scatter a bit out of range, and target speciallist infantry, also costy squads. brilliant for going after almost any tank, (I've even took out a baneblade with this config!) and most importantly termies. And crisis suites shouldn't be underestimated in CC. They've got 2 attacks each at S5. Just as hard to kill as an MEQ with 2wounds, and when you throw drones in to the equation that's a load of attacks, so can do damage. If it wasn't for the 3 HP rule, I'd take them as they are, and use them for CC

[No Dice]

Miggidy Mack;

Its says on pg25 "...the second (point cost) is for two weapons, counting as a twin linked weapon of that type"

By my reading that means that 2 weapons of the same type, eg. plasma rifles, will automatically count as twin linked, wheather you like it or not.

Which is a pity, but there we go!

[immense010]

the only exception to this is commander shadowsun with her two fusion blasters. But then again she hasn't got an XV8 issue suit so i suppose that's why

[Miggidy Mack]

Miggidy Mack;

Its says on pg25 "...the second (point cost) is for two weapons, counting as a twin linked weapon of that type"

By my reading that means that 2 weapons of the same type, eg. plasma rifles, will automatically count as twin linked, wheather you like it or not.

Which is a pity, but there we go!

BOO! I hate facts and logic! Ok I see what you are saying now. Oh well, so much for that bit of awesome.

[immense010]

yeah real pity, well i spose it makes sense. the TL weps make up for all the bs3 in the army. but personally i'd prefer it if battlesuits were a bit more expensive, but with bs4

[Miggidy Mack]

Well you can always give them Targeting Arrays! Of course then you can't give them multi-trackers, unless they are Bodyguards.

[immense010]

and that's the only thing that winds me up about 'em. They're meant to have passed the trial of fire before being given command of a suit. they should at least have +1 bs for this

[Stell]

and that's the only thing that winds me up about 'em. They're meant to have passed the trial of fire before being given command of a suit. they should at least have +1 bs for this

soooo true

[YamiJoey]

Shas'el Command suits have BS4 (compared to 3.)
Shas'o suits have BS5 (Join-highest in the game.)

Shas'el + 2 Weapons + TA + HWMT = BS5 Crisis Suit.
Shas'el + TL Weapon + TA = BS5 Crisis Suit.
Shas'o + TL Weapon + Weapon + HWMT = Expensive Crisis Suit.
Shas'o + Weapon + Weapon + Weapon + HWMT = Stupidly overcosted suit, but funny as hell to look at.

YJ