PDA

View Full Version : 2000 Pts. Chaos Space Marines, Tzeentch only army



Biker Wolf Priest
16th September 2008, 00:56
Just remember for this list eveything as if the daemonic steed and weapon are counted as tzeentch, again tzeentch only army.

HQ

Chaos Lord-185 Pts
-Daemonic Steed
-Daemon Weapon
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Personal Icon

Daemon Prince-185 Pts
-Wings
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Bolt of Change
-Wind of Chaos

Elites

Possessed Chaos Marines-10 Models-336 Pts
-Mark of Tzeentch
-possessed Champion

Troops

Chaos Space Marines-18 Models-305 Pts
-2xFlamer
-Chaos Champion
-Power Fist

Thousand Sons-8 Models-315 Pts
-Aspiring Champion
-Meltabombs
-Bolt of Change
-With Rhino Transport
-Twin-Linked Bolter
Fast Attack

Chaos Spawn-2 Models-80 Pts

Heavy Support

Chaos Defiler
-reaper autocannon replaced with close combat arm (free)

Obliterator Cult-2 Models-150 Pts

Summoned Daemons

Summon Lesser Daemon-10 Models-130

It's just a first time Chaos list for me, since i just started i thought it would be good to make a list if i want to actually play them :wink:

I'm trying to see if this list would be affective all round, its a mix of getting up close, middle shooting, and far vehicle/using them for whatever else i can find a use for, are there any suggestions on what i should change or just anything?

Cap Was Right
16th September 2008, 03:02
This list is all over the place, let me tackle each of the choices in turn and then the list as a whole.

Lord - Lord looks solid, if a little expensive. If you attached him to a squad of Raptors, you'd be able to do quite a bit of damage, but the point cost will be prohibitive.

Prince - Overpriced and under focused, lose Bolt of Change and replace it with Warp Time. A Prince of Tzeentch has two choices for psychic abilities, there's no excuse not to take Warp Time.

Possessed - These are overpriced even without the Icon. if you want a powerful melee unit, at this price you'd be better off taking Terminators. If you insist, you can still get the 4+ on your Terminators with the Icon and you're guaranteed Power Weapons. This also gives you some options to make you even nastier, either Flamers to soften up the enemy before the Assault or a Power Fist to bash armor.

CSM Squad - This squad is too large, it will be unwieldly in assaults and doesn't do anything a smaller squad couldn't. Split it up into more squads. Weapon choices are fine for an Assault Squad, but you could use a transport to get these guys into Rapid Fire and Assault range.

Thousand Sons - Probably fine as is; however, Bolt of Change won't help you as much as you think. Thousand Sons are always at their best when firing on enemy troops, especially those that rely on Power Armor for their survivability. Use a more specialized anti armor unit for taking out Terminators and heavy armor. Save your points on the Twin Linked Bolter, I've had a lot of luck with Havoc Launchers on my transports, but these points would be better spent elsewhere.

Chaos Spawn - You shouldn't take these, if by some stroke of luck they get into melee with a worthwhile enemy squad you may do some damage, but these points can be spent on better units.

Defiler - This unit is fine, although I prefer two DCCW's, the Flamer is probably equally, if not more effective against most units if you're forced to assault. Remember, the weapons on your Defiler are mutually exclusive.

Obliterators - These are fine, with two models you'll probably last long enough to do some decent damage.

Lesser Daemons - Too few of them to make a difference, Daemons are good in bulk and you're very low on troops as is. Not worth it.

WORKSHOP TIME!

You said you wanted your list to do everything, and it can do a little bit of everything, but that's not going to win you games. The key to a well balanced list, I've found, is focusing on the strengths of one aspect of your list and shoring up the weaknesses to minimize them against anything your enemy can field.

When you're building an army, there are three things that you're going to face time and time again which you're going to have to counter. These three things are Armor, MEQ and Horde.

Armor means enemy vehicles, you should always assume that your enemy is going to have one unit with AV14 armor that you're going to have to fight head on. To counter armor, you want to have at least two ways of piercing AV14 for every 1000 points or so, I say two because there's always a chance that your primary anti armor is going to be killed and you want to have a backup plan. Anti Armor units also have the added benefit of being dangerous to important enemy units such as HQs, Terminators and Monstrous Creatures.

MEQ stands for Marine Equivalent, which basically means an enemy with 4 Tougness and a 3+ armor save. You want to have a reliable way of dealing with these types of units because you're going to face off against a lot of them. This can be done in a wide variety of ways, the most reliable of which are weapons with an AP of 3 or better, primarily Plasma weapons which are specifically designed to deal with MEQ units. MEQ units also tend to be expensive, so you can counter them with sheer numbers of shots. Weapons like Plasma Guns also tend to deal with light vehicles extremely well.

Horde means any enemy army that tries to overwhelm you with numbers. There are only a few ways of dealing with this, but the weapons capable of anti horde are plentiful. Template weapons are extremely effective, the only limiting factor is their range. Blast Weapons tend to have a long range and are capable of thinning the enemy while they're still in their deployment zone, the problem is most Blast weapons are also Heavy weapons, which means you have to position yourself before you fire. The third and simplest option is volume of shots, you want to abuse any weapon that can fire multiple times in a single turn, this includes your standard Bolter which is Rapid Fire and capable of laying down a hail of bullets at close range. Weapons with multiple shots tend to do well against MEQ units as well due to the simple fact that you have a greater number of chances to pierce the enemy armor.

I think you're looking at army building the wrong way and are over complicating the process. Tell me what sort of play style you're looking for or what sort of army you want to play and I'll help you step by step with my process of army building, just to give you a little experience with putting a list together.

Biker Wolf Priest
16th September 2008, 04:53
Ha, well, yeah i had a feeling that it was all wrong but you see i based them off my space wolves playing, )about 4000 Pts total never use that much so far in my playing) but around 1000 to 2500 pts is the usual games i play with my space wolves, i have never lost a battle with them and i've been playing for a few years, so you can imagine why i have some close combat stuff going on there, but the only thing i know is how i'm keeping the lord, he might be pricey but quite stable. the real reason i usually get some bolt of change is for vehicle killing, i usually fight imperial guard, chaos space marines, tyranids, space marines, and eldar, but yeah i bet there's a gap between chaos space marines, and space wolves

dal9ll
17th September 2008, 17:24
Actually I sort of like your list. I do agree with many of Cap's suggestions though.

--split up that CSM squad into 9 and 9 (the number of Tzeentch!)
--add another Thousand Son to that unit to have 9 (not mandatory of course)
--I agree with Cap's suggestions on the Daemon Prince
--Im on the fence about the Possessed. Most people dont like them, but Ive seen them dominate too. Mark of Tzeentch works well for them, but then again, if they were Terminators with MoT they would still have that nice 4+ invul. save., plus access to actual firepower. Your call here.
--Instead of using Chaos Spawn, put Gift of Chaos on your Daemon Prince. Its ridiculously fun to use and has many tactical uses. Its especially good against low-toughness armies like Imperial Guard and Eldar.
--I do disagree with Cap on the Lesser Daemons. They'll compliment your other shooty troops with some good melee. Remember they can assault the turn they arrive, but not move. A squad of 10 will do just fine. Just dont go any less than 10 unless you're going to go like 9 and 9, 8 and 8, or 7 and 7, etc.

Other than this, I like it. A lot of players making Tzeentch armies just go all Thousand Sons, which I think is a really bad idea because of how few models you end up with. Thousand Sons are so expensive that using more than two units of them drops your army size down greatly.

Good luck!

Rahveel
20th September 2008, 03:22
Chaos Lord-185 Pts
-Daemonic Steed
-Daemon Weapon
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Personal Icon
Daemon Prince-185 Pts
-Wings
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Bolt of Change
-Wind of Chaos
Possessed Chaos Marines-10 Models-336 Pts
-Mark of Tzeentch
-possessed Champion
Chaos Space Marines-18 Models-305 Pts
-2xFlamer
-Chaos Champion
-Power Fist
Thousand Sons-8 Models-315 Pts
-Aspiring Champion
-Meltabombs
-Bolt of Change
-With Rhino Transport
-Twin-Linked Bolter
Chaos Spawn-2 Models-80 Pts
Chaos Defiler
-reaper autocannon replaced with close combat arm (free)
Obliterator Cult-2 Models-150 Pts
Summoned Daemons
Summon Lesser Daemon-10 Models-130

I'm trying to see if this list would be affective all round, its a mix of getting up close, middle shooting, and far vehicle/using them for whatever else i can find a use for, are there any suggestions on what i should change or just anything?

I'm seeing some good ideas, and some good themes. a few recommendations to toss in.

like everyone else, i advise going with warptime on the daemon prince. warptime complements DP's so well that there is no excuse to not take it (so much so that it makes khorne DP's the least favored of them all. the only exception to this rule is possibly lash of slaanesh). 2nd power is really up to you, and what you intend for him to do.

Bolt of Change: tank hunting, and going after other MC's
Doom Bolt: 3+ save killing goodness. note that it is not MEQ killing goodness, its only 'meh' at that.
Wind: awesome at clearing cover/objectives/units going to ground
Gift of chaos: a decent IC killer. decent because the odds are really low to succeed against anything actually worth casting it on, but god is it worth it when it pays off. this spell pays off most when used against unit leaders/special weapons/icons and such. troops often provide more accessible targets than IC's. still, its low odds make it often passed over.

out of the 4, I think wind comes out on top, it melds very nicely with warptime, and assists the DP by thinning some numbers before an assault.

tzeentch lords on disks w/ daemon weapons can be played successfully by themselves, but it takes a skilled player to do so, if you are new to the game, i strongly recommend running him with 9 rapters with an IoTz for the added protection.

I don't like possessed. some do, i don't know why. :P

Adding my vote to spiting up the CSM's, 2x as many icons for summoning is a good thing. give them rhinos if you feel like it from the points you saved dropping the spawn.

The thousand sons look pretty well off, but i would drop BoC for doombolt. sons are expensive enough, and it adds nicely to their weight of fire.

spawn. sigh..
i wish they had made spawn useful, as i have a million cool conversion ideas for them. unfortunately their unpredictability, slow speed, lack of armor, and high cost make them completely unworthwhile, especially in small numbers. save them for the games you feel like playing gift of chaos.

defiler looks good. (why not take 2?)

oblits i like, but i like defilers more :) just a matter of preference though. go with what suits your fancy