Is Deathwing a viable army?

[LanceWarrior]

Right i've used my Deathwing three times now, once in a 3-way with 4th Ed rules (which I won, but was heavily helped by the fact that the other two really wanted to nail the other one). The two times i've used them in 5th Ed it has been against Orks twice.

First time I got nailed, second time I got nailed. End of. Here was the list I was using last night:

Belial
Deathwing - Apothecary, Banner, Cyclone, 2 Chainfists
Deathwing - Assault Cannon
Deathwing - Assault Cannon
Deathwing - Assault Cannon
Scouts (5) - Heavy Bolter
Scouts (5) - Heavy Bolter
Vinicator - Extra Armour

It was a 1500 pts game, and the reason I lost was clearly that I was outnumbered. The best unit was the Vindicator (and they rock).

After this battle it made me think, are Deathwing a viable army. Are they an army that I could go into a 1500 points tournament and feel confident against every army. I think no, but I wondered what everyone else thinks.

[PUFNSTUF]

I have done very well with my deathwing. its 4 termy squads with THREE vindi's. as you said you were outnumbered, 3 large templates tends to help with at. Pure deathwing is very hard to win with, basically impossible with horde orks since you just dont have enough shots. LR heavy deathwing might do okay if using LRC's. I do believe they are viable, and if some of the things from the New Sm codedx cross over they will get some help. That being said, they will almost always be outnumbered, and are hard to use. That though is why they appeal to me, they are a challenge!

[Phail]

no, honestly i don't think they are a viable army

you have a very low model count, less than half the model count of a normal army usually, and all you have to show for it is an extra shot each at 24", and the weapon upgrades are ridiculously expensive

i don't like the low model count. I like to see loads of men on (my side of) the board :)

[Ron]

Sure it's a viable army. You just have to play more tactfully. I think that going from horde army to elite army is very hard because you have to remember that you army can't simply storm forward and laugh at casualties anymore. Ask pappasmurfy. He went from nids, to orks, to SWs.

[valinor]

Yes, it is just difficult, since it is more a foot-slogger army that is after you're done doing your Deep Strikes. My success with my Deathwing is due to my Ravenwing, honestly.

[Proturbo]

At 1000 pts.....no

1500 and over......YES

You need to mix weapons in your squads though to maximize efficiency and flexibility. You don't necessarily NEED vehicles because of the Power Fists and Chain Fists, but they are nice. And you definitely DON'T need those scouts.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Is Deathwing a viable army? Yes
Will your list composition make or break you? Absolutely

Seriously, DW can be a super elite army full of effective units that can wade through armies that horribly outnumber them, or they can just be outnumbered. They aren't quite as much of a glass knife as a DE army, but they are definately an obsidian dagger. Choose poorly for your list, or deploy wrong, or use units wrong and the knife shatters. Sure you have a bunch of small, very sharp pieces of obsidian left that can easily cause damage, but the knife has lost its deadliness. DW is all about those choices.

Editted for spelling, grammar, and overall lack of sleep.

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Sure it's a viable army. You just have to play more tactfully. I think that going from horde army to elite army is very hard because you have to remember that you army can't simply storm forward and laugh at casualties anymore. Ask pappasmurfy. He went from nids, to orks, to SWs.
Not that our matches are any less close as my SW than when I played Orks and Nids.

I tinkered with Chaos though and got royally pwned.

[Ron]

Sure it's a viable army. You just have to play more tactfully. I think that going from horde army to elite army is very hard because you have to remember that you army can't simply storm forward and laugh at casualties anymore. Ask pappasmurfy. He went from nids, to orks, to SWs.
Not that our matches are any less close as my SW than when I played Orks and Nids.

I tinkered with Chaos though and got royally pwned.

Made me feel better to not be outnumbered 3 to 1 at the begging of the game though. I it also annoying that my shooting orks never seemed to have an effect on the rest of the army.

You do agree that switching over to a more elite army forced to play more tactfully, though?

[Novasry]

im on the fence, against the right opponent the deathwing can decimate, but when outnembered they will lose... IMO a semi deathwing army would be great, deathwing termies backed up by a few tactical mainres

[Orcrist]

Personnally, I do think deathwing are a viable army choice, although quite though to play with. I used a 1500 point deathwing army against guard before, and managed a draw despite being incredibly outnumbered. I also tried a little test with my guard-playing friend, 50 conscripts with a commissar vs. one squad of deathwing terminators (one with an assault cannon). We strated 24" apart and both moved directly toward each other each turn (I of course would have too easy a win if I could keep retreating and firing, so we agreed to each move forward 6" each turn). Outnumbered slightly above 10 to 1 the terminators won.

Now, I should say that this was in 4th ed, so close combat against 50 conscripts wasn't quite what it is now. But I still think being heavily outnumbered, terminators can hold up. Deployment is crucial. You have to deploy all the terminators together, on one edge of the board - none of this setting up in the middle nonsense, or "I'll deepstrike one unit here, and a second unit all the way over there". The way you play is to bring as many of your terminators to as little of your opponents army as possible. Deal with bits at a time. If you can work it so that 1,500 points of terminators are against 800 points of orks (the remaining 700 or so having to spend time wheeling around from the other side of the table, often through cover etc) then that's a pretty good scenario for the terminators. Sometimes, a single unit of cheap terminators (i.e. basic squad for 215pts) can be deep-struck on the other side of the board, away from your main force. The idea here isn't to take out some particular units, but to buy time for the rest of your army; to slow down his force that is, as he deals with an immediate threat.

Now, I have always maintained that one of the biggest advantages of terminators is their ability to move and fire at full effect, and then charge when necessary too. To do well with terminators you really need to take advantage of these assets. Always play to your strengths before playing to your opponents weaknesses. Keep moving and firing, and really hold off on close combat as long as possible against hordes. Bring your opponents numbers down before assaulting, using your ability to retreat and fire to full effect (try to keep the terminators just inside 24" from the enemy line). Often this will mean moving forward on your first turn, shooting, and then retreating and shooting in subsequent turns as the enemy advances

As for your army, for fluff reasons at least I'd get rid of the scouts. Put in a dreadnought instead - one that can support the terminators at moving and firing (I've grown very fond of my dreadnought with twin-linked autocannon and rocket launcher lately - it managed to shoot down a nightbringer in the Irish GT this year :-> It was also great at taking out transports, which were used very much more this year by players compared to last year).

One last thing. I raise an eyebrow everytime I see a vindicator with extra armour. I'd like to see someone justifying paying 15pts for the upgrade. And as for vindicators being needed against horde armys, pah! My first game at the GT was against an ork army numbering over 200 models. I forgot about my vindicator (very embarressing) so it didn't come in until turn three, and I still drew (with dark angels), so I don't think I'd worry too much about having to take one. Those str10 ap2 blasts are nice though.

Rob :wink:

[DURENDIN]

I've had loads of fun using my 1500 point "classic" Deathwing list:

HQ
Belial

Elite
Venerable Dreadnought

Troops X 5
Deathwing Terminators 1 pair Lightning Claws and Assault Cannon per squad

That's more troops than your average Deathwing army with little in the way of whistle and bells, just the basics. Last game I used them I routed a Tyranid army outnumbering me four to one, (ok, that was luck!) but I'm sold on it!

[Proturbo]

I've had loads of fun using my 1500 point "classic" Deathwing list:

HQ
Belial

Elite
Venerable Dreadnought

Troops X 5
Deathwing Terminators 1 pair Lightning Claws and Assault Cannon per squad

That's more troops than your average Deathwing army with little in the way of whistle and bells, just the basics. Last game I used them I routed a Tyranid army outnumbering me four to one, (ok, that was luck!) but I'm sold on it!

I would put 2 pair lightning claws in each squad with 2x chain fists too

[DURENDIN]

I would put 2 pair lightning claws in each squad with 2x chain fists too

That would mean finding points from somewhere else and that probably means a lesser Dreadnought or dropping an Assault Cannon which I was resistant to do. If six S8 hits on the charge don't kill it..... etc!

[Proturbo]

I would put 2 pair lightning claws in each squad with 2x chain fists too

That would mean finding points from somewhere else and that probably means a lesser Dreadnought or dropping an Assault Cannon which I was resistant to do. If six S8 hits on the charge don't kill it..... etc!

What do you need the Dred for? Anti-tank? You have enough with the Power and Chain fists

[edmundblack]

Provided of course you can wade through the incoming shitstorm that faces most Terminators unscathed in order to lay one on the offending tank. And Demolisher Cannons really piss Terminators off.


Is Deathwing a viable army? Yes
Will your list composition make or break you? Absolutely

Seriously, DW can be a super elite army full of effective that can wae through armies that horribly outnumbered, or they can just be outnumbered. They aren't quite as glass knife as a DE army, but they are definately an obsidian dagger. Choose poorly for your list, or deploy wrong, or use units wrong and the knife scatters. Sure you have a bunch of small, very sharp pieces of obsidian left that can easily cause damage, but the knife has lost its deadliness. DW is all about those choices.

^^^ Best description of Death Wing yet? I think so. 8)

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Provided of course you can wade through the incoming shitstorm that faces most Terminators unscathed in order to lay one on the offending tank. And Demolisher Cannons really piss Terminators off.


Is Deathwing a viable army? Yes
Will your list composition make or break you? Absolutely

Seriously, DW can be a super elite army full of effective that can wae through armies that horribly outnumbered, or they can just be outnumbered. They aren't quite as glass knife as a DE army, but they are definately an obsidian dagger. Choose poorly for your list, or deploy wrong, or use units wrong and the knife scatters. Sure you have a bunch of small, very sharp pieces of obsidian left that can easily cause damage, but the knife has lost its deadliness. DW is all about those choices.

^^^ Best description of Death Wing yet? I think so. 8)

Aw shucks. :oops: Just doing my best. Except on spelling and grammar, i tend to fail at those when its 3 am. :)

@Durendin: So how many times have you played that list? That is a lot of terminator bodies at 1500 points, howver the lack of mobility bothers me. Then again this is from a guy who plays Deathraven... ;) Anyway, how well have you done with the list so far?

[Riddlecakes]

Uhhh dude your army dosent have 2 troop choices iam pretty sure that scouts are elites by now i think please correct me if im wrong

[DURENDIN]

how well have you done with the list so far?

Surprisingly well, but Kingfig does have spectacular bad luck with his rolls!


Uhhh dude your army dosent have 2 troop choices iam pretty sure that scouts are elites by now i think please correct me if im wrong

The list in the first post? You're correct, LanceWarrior doesn't have two troop choices, he has FOUR troop choices!

With Belial as your HQ, Deathwing Terminators are troops.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

how well have you done with the list so far?

Surprisingly well, but Kingfig does have spectacular bad luck with his rolls!


So have you and do you use Deathwing assault? I know its not something you'd use against CC oriented armies, but have you had any success with it otherwise? I recently moved, and haven't really had a chance to playtest my Deathwing yet (I finally have enough bodies to do pure Deathwing). I think it could be used well, and the new deepstriking rules make it a lot more safe, but sometimes things look better on paper than they are on the tabletop.

[DURENDIN]

I really don't have faith in deep strikes as I'm mostly playing on (unsafe) cityfight terrain. At a push I'd bring a Dreadnought down in a Drop-pod but that's about it, I'm unkeen to see whole squads teleport into walls!

If I was up against a very shooty army like Guard or Tau, then I'd risk it to avoid long walks against shitloads of Las, but I'd grumble like hell if it went wrong.

[TauCapula]

why not use the Deathwing-Ravenwing combo, add tele homers on the bikes, first turn... turbo boost 24 inches to the enemy... use the tele homer. Place your units within 6 inches and your set to screw the opponent. but i must say, it would be very hard to balance out the point with those.

[Phail]

why not use the Deathwing-Ravenwing combo, add tele homers on the bikes, first turn... turbo boost 24 inches to the enemy... use the tele homer. Place your units within 6 inches and your set to screw the opponent. but i must say, it would be very hard to balance out the point with those.

agreed that would work, but then it wouldn't be a deathwing army :?

[DURENDIN]

"Deathraven" armies tend to have even fewer models than Deathwing and rely on pure luck rather than grand strategy to win. Sure, you'll shock and awe them in the first two turns but then you're f*cked when your opponent brings his weight of numbers against you.

[TauCapula]

Haha i never said it was perfect. And LoT is correct that wouldnt be a deathwing army haha. But if you could fit the points, the ravenwing would do their point in shooting and drawing fire while your assualt termies or normal termies took out the enemy one by one. I mean, if you tele them close enough, Assault marines will take out squads at a time especially with the +3 invuln save.

[DURENDIN]

especially with the +3 invuln save.

What codex are you reading?

5+ only unless you have those wonky Storm Shields that were rejected by every other Chapter and the Dark Angels picked up cheap at a car-boot sale.

[TauCapula]

Im reading the new Space Marines Codex, Storm Shield = 3+ invuln save.

[Phail]

Im reading the new Space Marines Codex, Storm Shield = 3+ invuln save.

yup, and Deathwing are in the DA codex and follow the rules in there sorry ;)

[TauCapula]

Ahah, you are right, my bad... i assumed it was the same for both. I stand corrected.

[Durandal]

5+ only unless you have those wonky Storm Shields that were rejected by every other Chapter and the Dark Angels picked up cheap at a car-boot sale.[/color]
God, that annoys the hell otta me...has there been a DA FAQ yet?
I'm sure deathwing could be pretty reliable as your game size increases. 7 DPing termies is nothing to sneeze at(it should be 8, but IIRC, belial doenst let your command squad take termi armor). but anything lower then 1500-2000 pts and you're going to have a rough time. but i do think it is viable, in cerain games.

[honersstodnt]

there has been an FAQ for them out. and it basically says go f yourself in the arse with a rusty pole.

[SlappyWhite]

The best answer is Maybe. If fighting an elite army they usually fare well. Against horde they fall apart in an epic and crushing defeat.

[valinor]

God, that annoys the hell otta me...has there been a DA FAQ yet?
I'm sure deathwing could be pretty reliable as your game size increases. 7 DPing termies is nothing to sneeze at(it should be 8, but IIRC, belial doenst let your command squad take termi armor). but anything lower then 1500-2000 pts and you're going to have a rough time. but i do think it is viable, in cerain games.

Don't waste points on DP use it to get Ravenwing Bike Squadrons Teleport Homers and able to move too.

[Durandal]

I just read it. Wow. That equipment explanation was the laziest piece of crap ever....*bangs head against desk repeaditly*
@valimor-I meant deep striking, my bee.
EDIT: on recolection, no, I didnt mean deep striking. The question was for all deathwing...so no deathraven combo. I stand by my post.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

5+ only unless you have those wonky Storm Shields that were rejected by every other Chapter and the Dark Angels picked up cheap at a car-boot sale.[/color]
God, that annoys the hell otta me...has there been a DA FAQ yet?
I'm sure deathwing could be pretty reliable as your game size increases. 7 DPing termies is nothing to sneeze at(it should be 8, but IIRC, belial doenst let your command squad take termi armor). but anything lower then 1500-2000 pts and you're going to have a rough time. but i do think it is viable, in cerain games.

You can take 9 terminator squads. 3 elites, 6 troops.

[Durandal]

True, my bad. I've been off on such things for a while now...

[valinor]

The cheapest Company Master, I think is Belial. It just means spend your points on him and the rest are nothing but termies for a round about figure of 250 pts per unit of 5. Just allocate some points for a LR Crusader and stick Belial and his retinue in it to go to town on a lot of things.