Rhinos = Required?

[mechboy]

I check over the different lists and ideas being tossed around and over and over again I see the point about Rhinos being included for Troop choices.
Transports are better in 5th Edition, no doubt about it and we know that mobility is a huge factor, but even with the advent of the Run ability, it seems like Chaos and marines in general are being forced to be mechanized to be effective.

Is this just me being negative or is this something that other people have noticed as well?

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Rhinos are bad. I agree 100% that Rhinos are great buys and incredibly useful.

My point is more about the big picture. To me, I feel if I want to be competetive, I need to include Rhinos for my Troop choices. The weird thing is this is more true in 5th Edition even though we have the addition of Run, which was supposed to make Footslogging armies more viable.

So at the end of the day, I have a very hard time trying to make a non-mechanized list competetive, and this really goes for all marines. The Loyalists atleast have the advantage of Drop Pods and Infiltrating Scouts.

[Phail]

35pts gets a unit twice the movement and an armoured shell. What else are you gonna spend 35pts on?

Footslogging armies only work if they are a horde army or are super resilient (i.e. orks, nids, plague marines etc.) Basic marines are to fragile for their cost to be able to walk them across the board

I would never buy a trukk for a boyz mob because they aren't needed. I would always buy rhinos for my chaos marines if i had the models lol

[Proturbo]

They aren't REQUIRED if you run scouts as troops.

Other than that, they pretty much are which severely limits my options because I am only using up 50 pts and paying $30 for it and I have little money

[Phail]

only army i can see survivng without rhinos is DA or other SM with plasma cannon and plasma gun

[mechboy]

only army i can see survivng without rhinos is DA or other SM with plasma cannon and plasma gun

Why do you say that?

[Phail]

only army i can see survivng without rhinos is DA or other SM with plasma cannon and plasma gun

Why do you say that?

the longer ranged weaponry and the move-fire action of the plasma gun means that you don't need a rhino to get to your objective (if there is one) safely

also the new rule Combat Squads means that you effectively have 2 scoring units in 1 FOC slot. The plasma gun combat squad advances whilst the plasma cannon supports. Best weapons the squad can have imo

[mechboy]

[quote="Lord of Tau":306jztlq]only army i can see survivng without rhinos is DA or other SM with plasma cannon and plasma gun

Why do you say that?

the longer ranged weaponry and the move-fire action of the plasma gun means that you don't need a rhino to get to your objective (if there is one) safely

[/quote:306jztlq]

Interesting, because I was looking at the dual Plasmagun setup as an answer to this as it has the longest range of all the Special Weapons. (I play Chaos). My initial gameplan was something like this:
Run first turn (no shooting since I'm out of range anyway)
Either Run again second turn or just move and rapid fire
Move/rapid fire or stop and sit on the objective (if I've reached it)

[ForlornAmour]

Any Marine force that doesn't have mobility for its objective holders is bound to lose. That's mostly the reason everyone is cramming them in. You've got to be able to get some of your scoring units where you need them, and not everyone has the foresight (or luck!) to footslog a squad there and clean it up in less than a turn or two.

Personally, I prefer Drop Pods to Rhinos. Personal preference.

[Avor]

Rhino population needs to be controlled. They are everywhere wuth the new rules.

My biggest problem with 5th ed rhinos is that even wih paper armour, the very, very worse I can do to the passenger is a S4 AP- wound?

It is silly, I blast a puny rhino with my demomolisher cannon, yet only 3 of the marines inside died, WTF is that bullshit!?!?!

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

^^ lol

Seriously, Pinning Checks. People CAN fail them.

Chaos though...they're cool like that.

[The_Peacemaker]

I only have like 1 rhino and I used that for my Rapid Fire Black templar squad. It worked well.

When I played my basic Marines back in 4th edition I never took rhino's(never had any). Just sit back, shoot, and wait for them to come to you.

I don't really like rhino's because they almost ALWAYS die. The only reason they don't die is if the enemy has nothing better to shoot their strength 4 or higher weapons at. Rhino's at 58pts a piece used to be brutal, almost not worth it.


What do you mean that in 5th edition you have to be mobile to be competitive? what missions are you playing that you have to zoom so far accross the board?
I think there is only 1 mission where you pick a point to hold in your deployment zone. And if you get that mission you can always opt to just wipe out your opponent entirely and win that way.

[Phail]

the longer ranged weaponry and the move-fire action of the plasma gun means that you don't need a rhino to get to your objective (if there is one) safely



Interesting, because I was looking at the dual Plasmagun setup as an answer to this as it has the longest range of all the Special Weapons. (I play Chaos). My initial gameplan was something like this:
Run first turn (no shooting since I'm out of range anyway)
Either Run again second turn or just move and rapid fire
Move/rapid fire or stop and sit on the objective (if I've reached it)

ah, with my chaos i have one squad with 2 melta guns in a rhino, then one squad with 2 plasma guns that footslogs. If i had another rhino i would give it to them, but i have no choice but to footslogg lol

Remember that you should be deployed no more than 24" away from your opponent, so if you do have 2 plasma guns that doesn't mean you have to move, provided that your opponent doesn't stand still. Course, it wouldn't hurt to run into a position closer to the enemy on the first turn, then light em up in turn 2 :)

[RossMM]

I think there is only 1 mission where you pick a point to hold in your deployment zone. And if you get that mission you can always opt to just wipe out your opponent entirely and win that way.

That's a lot easier said than done. It would be simpler spending a few extra points and getting a Rhino, as they're now so cheap that buying one or two doesn't greatly diminish your firepower. Hence why they're so popular.

[MGRockwell]

If you're going to use rhino's or razorback's you need 3-5 of them.

Otherwise they will always die. If you have 3-5 of them then your opponent doesn't know what to shoot, and feels defeated if he doesn't blow the first one he's aiming at right away. They are great, the main reasoning being after they blow their load it really fucks with target priority.

On one hand they can shoot at the squad since it is going to hurt them. On the other hand they can shoot at the dinky rhino which is going to ram the objective they have at the last second to contest it.

[Angelofblades]

Rhinos.....

It really is different now than in 4th.

In 4th Rhino's were easier to blow up, but easier to hide. With Area Terrain, you could bring Rhino's to the table because you could hide them behind intervening area terrain. This was the major crux of my strategy in 4th ed. All I had to do was place huge pieces of LoS blocking area terrain in the center and hide my Rhinos in turn 1, just in case I didn't get turn 1, then drive up, halfway up the board in one turn, hiding behind the Area Terrain. Now I'm halfway up the board, untouched. This leaves me with the other half of the board with my smoke launchers. Multiply 1 Rhino by 3 and I was golden.

MG hit it on the head saying that Rhino's do things better in numbers. But in addition to that, you can increase their survivability by adding more high priority targets, like Vindicators or Predators.

Mobility was a key factor in 4th ed still. I don't believe sit and shoot armies ever had a chance in 4th ed, all because of Area Terrain.

In 5th now, area terrain no longer exists, but vehicles are harder to kill, in addition to that, I'm still not sure if the 50% chance of totally negating a shot is any better than downgrading any pens to glancings. The main factor now are cover saves. While there are weapons out there that negate cover saves, the majority of them don't have the strength to kill vehicles. Imagine if a lascannon shot a rhino behind terrain and didn't allow it a cover save? That would be beastly. In the world of 5th ed, where it's cover saves galore, those weapons that ignore cover saves are kings.

I wouldn't say that Rhino's are much required in 5th ed. They have a different survivability aspect now, but with TLOS, sit and sh*t armies are alot more viable. 4th ed balanced them out with area terrain because you could make them feel totally worthless all because they couldnt see. Now you get cover saves, not totally a great trade off in my opinion. I liked it better when you showed by force, to your opponent, that mobility was always better than static.

[scythes]

Rhino population needs to be controlled. They are everywhere wuth the new rules.

My biggest problem with 5th ed rhinos is that even wih paper armour, the very, very worse I can do to the passenger is a S4 AP- wound?

It is silly, I blast a puny rhino with my demomolisher cannon, yet only 3 of the marines inside died, WTF is that bullshit!?!?!
You regularly kill three marines when you blow a rhino? I'd be happy with that, I might lose one, maybe two max, almost never three marines. But I can understand where you're coming from, a massive shell hits this puny transport, utterly destroys it, but all the guys inside hop out safely, gotta love power armour.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

I would never buy a trukk for a boyz mob because they aren't needed. I would always buy rhinos for my chaos marines if i had the models
I agree with this.

Even if a 35 point vehicle gets explodicated halfway across the battlefield, it's put your units that closer to the enemy, and they'll have to weather that much less fire. With my current Ork Horde setup, the Boyz are relegated to walking, but I put more important/fragile units such as Nobz or Burnas into Trukks to get them into combat fast, or at least stop them being shot at for as long as possible.

[Phail]

[quote="Lord of Tau":gweqqyrf]I would never buy a trukk for a boyz mob because they aren't needed. I would always buy rhinos for my chaos marines if i had the models
I agree with this.

Even if a 35 point vehicle gets explodicated halfway across the battlefield, it's put your units that closer to the enemy, and they'll have to weather that much less fire. With my current Ork Horde setup, the Boyz are relegated to walking, but I put more important/fragile units such as Nobz or Burnas into Trukks to get them into combat fast, or at least stop them being shot at for as long as possible.[/quote:gweqqyrf]

indeedy

35pts for a truck o 36pts for 6 more boys. Obvious choice

My nobs and warboss (and weirdboy when i get him) go in my battlewagon

[Erikman]

I'm surprised at the number of trukk haters here, and I feel like they're overlooking an important part of the trukk - they only seem to be looking at it as a comparison of survivability over time (more models -> more survivability VS transport -> less time needed to travel).

The important part of the trukk for orks is the extended charge range. Getting the charge with orks is critical now that orks traded their choppas for furious charge. A trukk gives you a charge range just shy of 15" (12" move, 2" disembark, almost 1" diameter of base). This lets you strike from afar, strike from around terrain, and strike where you want to without being counter-charged.

There is also the benefit of being able to do a quick 18" zoom to objectives on the last turn, allowing you to attack a wider range of areas on the table while still having a chance to move to objectives.

The main downside of trukks is the cap at 12 models, which can make morale tests difficult at times. For this reason I always try to give trukk nobz bosspoles.

[The_Peacemaker]

Rhinos.....
Mobility was a key factor in 4th ed still. I don't believe sit and shoot armies ever had a chance in 4th ed, all because of Area Terrain.

I'm still not sure if the 50% chance of totally negating a shot is any better than downgrading any pens to glancings.


I tried played my traditional Full Static Tau army and it was tough to get a win, Even when I thought I had won some CC squad would get lucky and flank a squad and then consolodate accross my entire army.

I've played a few games with my smoke launchers giving glancing and then giving a cover save. Its iffy and it depends on who your playing against. If someone gets a penatrating hit and then rolls a 1 its didn't even matter if it was glance or pen. If someone fires a bunch of boltes and gets a 4 or 5 glancing hits then I want a cover save!
And then it depends on how much terrain there is in the way, cause you might have gotten a cover save anyway.
And just try playing Necrons! they get glancing no matter what!

The smoke glancing is really only great against stuff like lascans and railguns. Otherwise I think I prefer the cover save.


Truks and boyz: Like people have said its better to have a big mob of the boyz and then use truks for the already small squads like nobz.
If your going against another CC army and you've got everyone in truks there isn't much point into zooming 18" when the enemy is already coming for you. And then there is the 12 squad cap with the truks, with the way the new CC results are resolved its better to have a big squad.
And a big squad marching up the field would probably get cover saves so your not gonna loose too many models.

[ShameLESS ONE]

Rhinos.....
Mobility was a key factor in 4th ed still. I don't believe sit and shoot armies ever had a chance in 4th ed, all because of Area Terrain.

I'm still not sure if the 50% chance of totally negating a shot is any better than downgrading any pens to glancings.


I tried played my traditional Full Static Tau army and it was tough to get a win, Even when I thought I had won some CC squad would get lucky and flank a squad and then consolodate accross my entire army.

I've played a few games with my smoke launchers giving glancing and then giving a cover save. Its iffy and it depends on who your playing against. If someone gets a penatrating hit and then rolls a 1 its didn't even matter if it was glance or pen. If someone fires a bunch of boltes and gets a 4 or 5 glancing hits then I want a cover save!
And then it depends on how much terrain there is in the way, cause you might have gotten a cover save anyway.
And just try playing Necrons! they get glancing no matter what!

The smoke glancing is really only great against stuff like lascans and railguns. Otherwise I think I prefer the cover save.


Truks and boyz: Like people have said its better to have a big mob of the boyz and then use truks for the already small squads like nobz.
If your going against another CC army and you've got everyone in truks there isn't much point into zooming 18" when the enemy is already coming for you. And then there is the 12 squad cap with the truks, with the way the new CC results are resolved its better to have a big squad.
And a big squad marching up the field would probably get cover saves so your not gonna loose too many models.


the added attacks for the charge may be useful

[MGRockwell]

Welcome to the boards.

Just as a note, it is generally considered rude to pull up a thread that is over a month old (much more a half a year old) unless you have something beneficial to contribute. You can charge whether you're in a Trukk or on foot. In Rhino's people either drive close to get within Rapid Fire range, or they sit in the Rhino until their next turn so they can get out, move and assault before they move their Rhino.

I spent a while trying to figure out why I was half way through a 'new' thread and noticed I had already posted in it... which was before my leave of absence from the site...

Please consider posting in a thread that is so old unless you have something profound to say. Many other members will be less polite than I am about 'thread necromancy'.

[Haverchuck]

SW rhino's are still 50pts, *sigh*

[Flyinfart]

Chaos is almost strictly a close combat army, that is, every single unit somehow excels in close combat. There is some ranged goodness, but you can almost always count on dishing out some numbers in close combat. And how do you get in close combat by turn 3? With a rhino. Lots of rhinos. And how do your opponents flee from your rhinos? With their own rhinos/transports, of coarse!
With the loss of army-wide veteran skills (full infiltration chaos, tank hunter havoc squads... etc) we are forced to rely on close combat more, and in direct correlation our rhinos because they are our best method to get into close combat these days. Its rare for close combat to not be a safe place for chaos marines, and the times that it isn't means that our bolters/flamers/meltas are getting brought out. Not to mention defilers/vindicators.

[Legatto]

Rhinos are much too useful NOT to take them. I play chaos, so lets make a few price comparisons.

One rhino is roughly 10-15 points more than A SINGLE cult marine. So for roughly the same cost you add in 6" of extra movement and protection from templates and most non-heavy weapons. It even has a twin-linked bolter and a once-per-game ability to grant itself a 4+ cover save. Plus if it get immobilized it can repair itself. A marine put out of the fight cant heal himself. Throw extra armor on (it should always be there) and consider it the same as throwing a special weapon on one of your marines.

Consider this also: We pay generally +10-15 points for a champion in a cult squad. Then assume we have a squad of bezerkers. Add the points to give him a power weapon, melta bombs, and a peronal icon and the skull champ comes out to costing MORE than the rhino.

How much does a heavy weapon cost? The same as a havok launcher? A 48" str 5 blast weapon?

The point is they are so cost efficient that its silly not to take them. Even after the unit disembarks you still have a tank that can at the very least shoot a twin-linked bolter, provide cover, block LoS, and tank shock units to move them where you want them to be.

Are rhinos absolutely necessary to win a game with chaos / SM? No

Are rhinos absolutely necessary to maximise point cost / Efficiency? A big hell yes.