Chaos lord weapon configs

[Warmaster Lucos]

I know there are a couple of choas lord threads about deamon weapons, but i'd like to turn your attention to the other ways of arming your badass super-warrior from hell.

I normally run a slaaneshi lord with a daemon weapon, but to be honest it doesn't really give me the "destroy all" feel that i think a lord should have.
So i started to try different combinations, using my lord as a proxy and trying each combination out on different targets in my recent games.
I began to realise that while in theroy more attacks should wound more models, fewer more powerful attacks would do almost the same damage.

Take the powerfist. Against a marine your hitting on 3+ and killing on 2+. My slannish daemon weapon is hitting on 3+ still, but only wounds on a 4+. Both have instant death. The only problem with the powerfist is that you strike last, so it makes a risky combat that little bit more tense.

Now the real question i have is, what shooting weapon works best for your lord? I've always gone with the combi-melta, but seeing as i'm trying new things i'd just like to know any recomendations other chaos players may have.

thank you

[LeeHarvey]

My friend uses a Chaos Lord that has the Mark of Tzeench, a Deathscreamer (daemon weapon), Warptime and Bolt of Change. Having the deathscreamer makes spending points on a ranged weapon unneccesary while BoC gives him that more powerful shot to use against hard targets and MC's.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

lords can't have psychic powers and sorcerers can't take demon weapons

[LeeHarvey]

I guess i've been getting robbed then. Thats the setup my main opponent uses for his lord. No wonder it's so effective. Hmmm.... looks like me and him are gonna have some words. :smt011

[Flyinfart]

I went through the math on this in an older post. In terminator armour, you're best off with a generic daemon weapon, or daemon weapon of nurgle. Those are the most destructive. Slaanesh is only good as a character and tau battlesuit killer. Too many characters these days have retinues making characters untouchable to be useful or have immunity to instant death. The Khornate weapon has too low of a strength rating (4) to match the kill ratings of the nurgle and undivided weapons in killing abilities against anybody beyond t2 (which are exceedingly rare), plus the fact that khorne is prone to hurt itself far too often. Tzeentch is harder to pull the math for, but in close combat is the least effective of the daemon weapons. It has the shooting ability which greatly boosts the chances of harming oneself, but can be excellent against marines without a question.

We did a little math with duel lightning claws with a jump pack, and they can be pretty beastly, but no available option can match the killiness of the daemons weapons.

[Phail]

pfft, math..

Tzeentch DW is awesome - i kill shed loads with it :) mind you mine is on a bike..

[Warmaster Lucos]

hmm, thats quite interesting, i might try the undivided daemon weapon in my next game.
i'm not too fond of putting the extra points on my lord for the mark of nurgle and the daemon weapon, slaanesh is far cheeper, and whilst not such a good attack-to-wound ratio its nearly always hitting first.

[willydstyle]

Chaos lords simply don't have the ability to be kitted to be nearly as killy as they used to be, or as many of the other HQs in the game. If you want uber-killyness, just use Abbadon or Kharn, or a Daemon Prince with warp time. Almost any Lord configuration is throwing way too many points at not enough effectiveness.

[LanceWarrior]

Personally I prefer to run a Lord with Daemon weapon and Mark of Slaanesh. It's got a good initiative and can knock things out in one. It's also reasonably cheap.

One i'd like to try is a Nurgle Lord with a Daemon Weapon. It's go enough attacks to take out MCs, and the Daemon Weapon ability makes it good. The Lord of cause also benefits from the extra toughness due to the mark.

[matapiojo]

Chaos lords simply don't have the ability to be kitted to be nearly as killy as they used to be, or as many of the other HQs in the game. If you want uber-killyness, just use Abbadon or Kharn, or a Daemon Prince with warp time. Almost any Lord configuration is throwing way too many points at not enough effectiveness.

I disagree. My Bloodfeeder Lord (140pts) has returned his value in points and then some in a good 85% of the games I use him. I am aware the OP is talking about other non-Daemon Weapon configurations, but I simply have not had the need to use any other type of Lord.

[Warmaster Lucos]

Chaos lords simply don't have the ability to be kitted to be nearly as killy as they used to be, or as many of the other HQs in the game. If you want uber-killyness, just use Abbadon or Kharn, or a Daemon Prince with warp time. Almost any Lord configuration is throwing way too many points at not enough effectiveness.

Since i posted this i have realised that a daemon prince w/warp time is so much more effective than a lord. My DP killed a squad of 10 space marines, 3 terminators and punched a hole in a preadator all in one game whilst my lord does diddly squat compared to this.


I disagree. My Bloodfeeder Lord (140pts) has returned his value in points and then some in a good 85% of the games I use him. I am aware the OP is talking about other non-Daemon Weapon configurations, but I simply have not had the need to use any other type of Lord.

i may try this lord at some point, but to be honest i'd rather run a nurgle daemon prince for roughly the same points.

[matapiojo]

I disagree. My Bloodfeeder Lord (140pts) has returned his value in points and then some in a good 85% of the games I use him. I am aware the OP is talking about other non-Daemon Weapon configurations, but I simply have not had the need to use any other type of Lord.

i may try this lord at some point, but to be honest i'd rather run a nurgle daemon prince for roughly the same points.[/quote]

Only disadvantage there is that you cant join your DP into a unit of 9 berzerkers within a rhino...

This lord has proven to have MUCH more survivability than any of my DPs.

[Warmaster Lucos]

hmm, yes that is a down side, but thats why DPs have eternal warrior, and if khorne dude meets a powerfist the he's gone.
i supose there are pros and cons to each choice, just depends what tactics you use at the end of the day.

[matapiojo]

hmm, yes that is a down side, but thats why DPs have eternal warrior, and if khorne dude meets a powerfist the he's gone.
i supose there are pros and cons to each choice, just depends what tactics you use at the end of the day.

Yup, thats why you just have to field both on large enough games *wink*

[willydstyle]

I like Princes more because I find that being able to field a single unit that is tough forces my opponent to split fire.

If you put a lord with berzerkers, the lord itself is more protected, but the enemy can invest more firepower to the single unit.

[Phail]

I now run a Slaanesh Sorcerer and a Slaanesh Lord with DW

Scares your opponent shitless when you have 2 characters running around with instant-killing weapons - means they daren't send in their own characters to kill yours even though they're the best things to use against me

I just don't see the point in taking a CCW other than a daemon weapon - it's only 15pts more than a lightening claw

[obliter8or]

Since i posted this i have realised that a daemon prince w/warp time is so much more effective than a lord. My DP killed a squad of 10 space marines, 3 terminators and punched a hole in a preadator all in one game whilst my lord does diddly squat compared to this.


only that ? :D my DP killed 2 whole 10-man SM squads + 5 terminators + 2 dreadnaughts :twisted:

but yes, DP's are far more effective, I think.

As for lord kit out I take generic daemon weapon and bolt pistol or combi-melta if I have a few points left.

[willydstyle]

I just don't see the point in taking a CCW other than a daemon weapon - it's only 15pts more than a lightening claw

Because a lightning claw doesn't make you stand around like an idiot 1/6 of the time in close combat, and is cheaper as you mentioned. 15 points is another chaos marine with another bolter and 2 attacks on the table.

[Phail]

I just don't see the point in taking a CCW other than a daemon weapon - it's only 15pts more than a lightening claw

Because a lightning claw doesn't make you stand around like an idiot 1/6 of the time in close combat, and is cheaper as you mentioned. 15 points is another chaos marine with another bolter and 2 attacks on the table.

1/6 of the time. Very small odds tbh, and i've only once rolled a 1 for my DW

And you say 15pts gets you an extra CSM i.e. 2 more attacks on the table. Well, a DW can get you 6 more attacks on the table

Believe me, DWs are worth the risk for what they give you

[vikinboere]

I like Princes more because I find that being able to field a single unit that is tough forces my opponent to split fire.

If you put a lord with berzerkers, the lord itself is more protected, but the enemy can invest more firepower to the single unit.

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

That's a possible 20 inch assault range and you probably wipe out the unit in front of you. Get back into the landraider and off you go to your next objective! It's rather pricy but you can't get shot if your in assault and the landraider is a rather big los blocker.

[matapiojo]

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

That's a possible 20 inch assault range and you probably wipe out the unit in front of you.

Huh? Explain that math to me...

[Ron]

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

That's a possible 20 inch assault range and you probably wipe out the unit in front of you.

Huh? Explain that math to me...

LR moves 12 inches+Lord disembarks 2 inches from LR door+6 inches charge=20 inches. :wink:

[matapiojo]

Duh!

Always leave the 2" out of the equation. Please ignore this ditzzy monkey.

[Democratus]

Duh!

Always leave the 2" out of the equation. Please ignore this ditzzy monkey.

What are you talking about? He's right with the numbers.

Truth be told, you can get even more from the disembark as only part of your base must be within 2" meaning the front of a base can be nearly 3" for standard size models - giving about 21" of assault threat from a squad in a Land Raider.

[Tarion'Maseth]

Duh!

Always leave the 2" out of the equation. Please ignore this ditzzy monkey.

What are you talking about? He's right with the numbers.

Truth be told, you can get even more from the disembark as only part of your base must be within 2" meaning the front of a base can be nearly 3" for standard size models - giving about 21" of assault threat from a squad in a Land Raider.
What are you talking about? :wink: He's agreeing with him, and saying he forgot the 2".

[matapiojo]

Duh!

[edit] I Always leave the 2" out of the equation. Please ignore this ditzzy monkey. Refer to my Avatar

What are you talking about? He's right with the numbers.

Truth be told, you can get even more from the disembark as only part of your base must be within 2" meaning the front of a base can be nearly 3" for standard size models - giving about 21" of assault threat from a squad in a Land Raider.
What are you talking about? :wink: He's agreeing with him, and saying he forgot the 2".

Hehehe, I can see how the words could be misinterpretted. Tarion's interpretation is the correct one.

[Warmaster Lucos]

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

i do like the powerfist lords, a good second lord choice if your going to go down that route, but i don't really like the dual lightning claws, they rob your lord of the abillity to shoot, and seeing as his bs5 thats a decent shot wasted. (thinking along the lines of a combi-melta before assulting/fired at a vehical.)

[matapiojo]

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

i do like the powerfist lords, a good second lord choice if your going to go down that route, but i don't really like the dual lightning claws, they rob your lord of the abillity to shoot, and seeing as his bs5 thats a decent shot wasted. (thinking along the lines of a combi-melta before assulting/fired at a vehical.)

Whats a single situational BS5 shot from a combi-melta compared to the greatly superior CC advantage the Lit-Claw pair would give. Re-rolling wounds with a bonus attack?

[vikinboere]

I believe the chaos lord keeps his boltpistol so you still get a shot since pistols are assault 1

If i give my lord dual lc's i mostly give my skull champion (the khorne berzerker champion dude) a fist, that's still 4 fist attacks on the charge.
My last battle with this squad i had an emergency disembark after a soulgrinder killed my landraider with a rather lucky shot. since walkers use front av for close combat my krakgrenades were no good (av 13 for a grinder) but still i assaulted the soulgrinder scoring 3 hits and i managed to destroy it.

[Warmaster Lucos]

I often field a chaos lord with mok and a pair of lightning claws (or sometimes a powerfist) in a squad with khorne berzerkers loaded into a landraider.

i do like the powerfist lords, a good second lord choice if your going to go down that route, but i don't really like the dual lightning claws, they rob your lord of the abillity to shoot, and seeing as his bs5 thats a decent shot wasted. (thinking along the lines of a combi-melta before assulting/fired at a vehical.)

Whats a single situational BS5 shot from a combi-melta compared to the greatly superior CC advantage the Lit-Claw pair would give. Re-rolling wounds with a bonus attack?

with a daemon weapon yes, as its a possible 10 attacks on the charge, plus your melta shot. i can see the appeal of the lightning claws, but they never really seem to do that well for me.

is it better to have 10 attacks (charging) at 3's to hit and 3's to wound(with unmarked lord) or is it better to have 5 attacks (charging) at 3's and 4's with re-rolls? maths? [EDIT] - Against tactical marines


I believe the chaos lord keeps his boltpistol so you still get a shot since pistols are assault 1

If i give my lord dual lc's i mostly give my skull champion (the khorne berzerker champion dude) a fist, that's still 4 fist attacks on the charge.
My last battle with this squad i had an emergency disembark after a soulgrinder killed my landraider with a rather lucky shot. since walkers use front av for close combat my krakgrenades were no good (av 13 for a grinder) but still i assaulted the soulgrinder scoring 3 hits and i managed to destroy it.

A lord in term armour can't have a boltpistol, and i'm sure that if you have dual claws then you cannot fire a bolt pistol? if you can thats just so wrong.

[willydstyle]

The problem is that you're assuming best-case scenario for the daemon weapon, when it will only get max attacks 1/6 of the time.

But if you roll a 1 then not only do you not get bonus attacks, but you don't get attacks at all!

So there are six results for how many attacks a daemon weapon wielding lord will have:

0
6
7
8
9
10

Add 'em all up and divide by 6, and you get an average of 6.67 attacks on the charge.

Compared to 5 attacks on the charge from lightning claws.

Against tactical marines:

The DW lord averages about 4.5 hits, which is 3 wounds

The Lightning Claw lord 3.33 hits, which is 2.5 wounds

So yes, the DW lord is better, but is it worth the extra points and the chance to stand around like an idiot, possibly taking a wound, and allowing the enemy to beat up on you, possibly causing more wounds, followed by combat resolution and No Retreat! possibly causing even more wounds...

To reiterate: Chaos Lords aren't worth it.

[Warmaster Lucos]

hmm, it doesn't seem too different though to be honest.

DP all the way really.

DP-110pts
m.o.t-20
warptime-25
bolt of change-25
180pts - for a hq that won't die from instant death, 4+ invunrable save, monstrous creature, re-rolls(warp time), tank poping (bolt of change).

thats only 30 more points than a lord with terminator armour, deamon weapon, and combi weapon and is far better.

[LanceWarrior]

Remove all points costs...

Yes that's you Warmaster Lucos

[Flyinfart]

All I can say guys is wow.
It would be really nice to have a sticky'fied thread with all of the math, as so many of us have repeatedly provided.
If you're going to argue chaos lord weapon configs, bring some science and math into the equation, and remove the opinion. If you find something works for you, great! Please explain what sort of opponents you face, what accompanies the lord, and the delivery mechanism. Not to mention the math in your configuration. Just because you can roll a 6 on your daemon weapon, hit with every attack and proceed to wound with every roll doesn't mean that its a statistical norm.

Sorry, just had to say it.

[vikinboere]

A lord in term armour can't have a boltpistol, and i'm sure that if you have dual claws then you cannot fire a bolt pistol? if you can thats just so wrong.

Never said i fielded my lord in termie armour, and yes the lord still can shoot his boltpistol, dex says he changes his ccw only not his ccw and his pistol or bolter (like chosen who have to give up there ccw pistol and bolter for a pair of lc's, or the raptor champion who has to give up his boltpistol and ccw)

[willydstyle]

All I can say guys is wow.
It would be really nice to have a sticky'fied thread with all of the math, as so many of us have repeatedly provided.
If you're going to argue chaos lord weapon configs, bring some science and math into the equation, and remove the opinion. If you find something works for you, great! Please explain what sort of opponents you face, what accompanies the lord, and the delivery mechanism. Not to mention the math in your configuration. Just because you can roll a 6 on your daemon weapon, hit with every attack and proceed to wound with every roll doesn't mean that its a statistical norm.

Sorry, just had to say it.

Which leads to the sad fact that the Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder is an absolutely beautiful model... and yet absolutely rubbish in game. I'm tempted to buy one just to paint it though.

[Democratus]

A lord in term armour can't have a boltpistol, and i'm sure that if you have dual claws then you cannot fire a bolt pistol? if you can thats just so wrong.

Never said i fielded my lord in termie armour, and yes the lord still can shoot his boltpistol, dex says he changes his ccw only not his ccw and his pistol or bolter (like chosen who have to give up there ccw pistol and bolter for a pair of lc's, or the raptor champion who has to give up his boltpistol and ccw)

From Codex: Chaos Space Marines (p. 92)
"May instead replace all wargear with Terminator armour, twin-linked bolter and power weapon for XX pts."

Looks like he looses his bolt pistol since it would definately be included in "all wargear".

[willydstyle]

A lord in term armour can't have a boltpistol, and i'm sure that if you have dual claws then you cannot fire a bolt pistol? if you can thats just so wrong.

Never said i fielded my lord in termie armour, and yes the lord still can shoot his boltpistol, dex says he changes his ccw only not his ccw and his pistol or bolter (like chosen who have to give up there ccw pistol and bolter for a pair of lc's, or the raptor champion who has to give up his boltpistol and ccw)

From Codex: Chaos Space Marines (p. 92)
"May instead replace all wargear with Terminator armour, twin-linked bolter and power weapon for XX pts."

Looks like he looses his bolt pistol since it would definately be included in "all wargear".

He said that he did NOT field his lord in terminator armor.