DIY Marine Chapters: What happened to traits?

[FoxPhoenix135]

This question may be answered somewhere else, or may not belong in this category, so mods feel free to move / delete this. My question stands, however. What happened to the chapter traits and disadvantages outlined in the 4th ed. codex? They are not in the 5th ed codex, but can they still apply? Are they listed in another codex, like the chaos SM codex (renegade chapters and the like)?

I'd appreciate anybody who can answer this for me, and direct me in the proper way to use these traits in 5th ed, if at all.

[Le Shirrif]

They got killed off. There aren't any in the new 'dex.

[Baragash]

They no longer exist as someone at GW finally realised what a badly thought out system it was.

If you want to mod the army you have to take certain special characters or character choices (eg Captain on a Bike).

[Fce Cmmr Sangre]

It was a great idea poorly applied. So GW did what they always do to ideas like that - remove it and replace it with special rules or characters.

[sunshadow7]

They removed it and replaced it with a cookie cutter.

I refuse to buy a fifth edition rulebook for space marines.

No customization = insta-fail.

[scythes]

There is still a decent amount of customization available in the 5th edition codex, the only problem is you have to take a special character to use it. Each special character has its own traits that apply to your army when you use them. Not as varied as the trait system, but it's still usable if you don't mind using special characters.

[Fce Cmmr Sangre]

But what if I do mind taking special characters? I hate special characters. The idea that there are hundreds of Marneus Calgars roaming the universe with 1500 points at their disposal angers me.

[jedihobbit]

But what if I do mind taking special characters? I hate special characters. The idea that there are hundreds of Marneus Calgars roaming the universe with 1500 points at their disposal angers me.

Then you make a custom mini, and change the name.

I remember using the traits system, it was kinda hard to make Disadvantages actually work. "Oh look i can't ally with Grey Knights! Whoopdedoo!" (not a dig on GKs <3)

[sunshadow7]

But what if I do mind taking special characters? I hate special characters. The idea that there are hundreds of Marneus Calgars roaming the universe with 1500 points at their disposal angers me.

x2.

Why should I have to redo everything about my army because GW decided not to even bother trying to get a new trait system?

"Too many people are whining about cheesy lists. I know! Let's limit their options and creativity scope!"


I remember using the traits system, it was kinda hard to make Disadvantages actually work. "Oh look i can't ally with Grey Knights! Whoopdedoo!" (not a dig on GKs <3)

The whole point of the traits system was not to make an army list, so much as being able to make a fluffy army, you weaved your disadvantages into your storyline.

And some of those minor disadvantages were actually a bigger pain than the major disadvantages. Your opponent deciding when the game ends? Ouch.

But punishing those with artistic license for their armies for those who decided to back the system against the wall, rip it's pants down and give it the wrong thermomitor?




Urgh. I only have one army that can play in reality: My necrons. Armoured company no longer legal, and since this crap has been pulled, I am NOT playing with a vanillaised marines.

Mozric, I feel your pain for your ex alpha legion.

[FoxPhoenix135]

So... I take it that this topic has not been discussed elsewhere... by the amount of replies anyway.

I do realize that a lot of the traits were kinda lame / had lame disadvantages, but I did like the fact that I could customize more than just the fluff of my SM force. Oh well, if they pulled it, they pulled it. Not much we can do about it now. I would play 4th ed rules, but I actually like the new rules in 5th ed that help modify the way the game is played (i.e. troops as scoring units, running, etc).

[CrazyTriangle]

The thing to keep in mind is not just the fluff of 40k (Which is fun, and definitely makes the game more fun) but also that 40k is played in Tournaments. A lot. As great as it is to be able to make fluffy armies, if they don't work in the tournament scene, GW is not going to keep it. If you're playing for fun, just ask your opponent to let you use the trait system. Maybe they will.

And this has been discussed a lot, but I'll say it again. The special character Calgar is not him. It is what he and other characters that are similar to him would be in game terms. You can rename him and do whatever you want to his backstory. Maybe not as fluffy, but there's plenty you can do with it.

[LeeHarvey]

They removed it and replaced it with a cookie cutter.

I refuse to buy a fifth edition rulebook for space marines.

No customization = insta-fail.


I whole heartedly agree. I had to totally reorganize my Marines and went from having 4 eight man tactical squads to 3 ten man squads with some extra Marines that just sit out the battle. That and the wargear/pointscost changes were unecceesary in my opinion. People barely took venerable dreads in 4th because they were so expensive for an AV12 unit, now they are simply ludicrous. Also, the removal of the Veteran skills for them and the terminator squads.........

[Morr]

What people need to see is that you can still customize your chapter, You just need to self impose restrictions etc and use the current rules. People just dont like the idea of shooting them selves in the foot for fluff, they would much prefer an ADVANTAGE for their fluff. My list runs land speeders with no heavy armour to support them. Sure i loose a fair bit but i play marines for the flavor not the gaming power. Their is no point customizing a chapter to win, you may as well follow the trend with powergamers cos no one will appreciate you well reasoned fluff if it gives you an unfair advantage.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

What people need to see is that you can still customize your chapter, You just need to self impose restrictions etc and use the current rules. People just dont like the idea of shooting them selves in the foot for fluff, they would much prefer an ADVANTAGE for their fluff. My list runs land speeders with no heavy armour to support them. Sure i loose a fair bit but i play marines for the flavor not the gaming power. Their is no point customizing a chapter to win, you may as well follow the trend with powergamers cos no one will appreciate you well reasoned fluff if it gives you an unfair advantage.
Yup. There is still plenty of customisable things in the book, but tourney whores and power gamers would rather whine on about how some got took away because it didn't work :/ There's plenty of things in every book which are like this, but whenever anything changes, people would rather play hell than look for how to make it their own.

On a side note, I use Pedro Kantor, and only use Sternguard as Power Armoured Marines on foot, using the background of the majority were wiped out in a Warp travel collision, so they're recruiting more guys. the armoured guys that are left are vets because of this and that that happened before said recruitment...

[RustyKnight]

Point costs and unit limits were bound to change eventually. If you liked having the disadvantages for fluff reasons, why not still use them? A guy at the FLGS never takes Librarians for that reason (well, and because he runs Vulkan and a Termy Chappy).

The only thing that I can really see people getting upset about is if they built all their Tac squads with Chainswords and Bolt Pistols.

[FoxPhoenix135]

All that has been said thus far I see as truth. The only reason I liked the traits is that it gave a sense of game-sanctioned-credibility to the fluffy forces, encouraging a little more personalization and customization. There is virtually no reason to have a DIY chapter anymore aside from painting reasons. If you want different rules, you have to get the codex for Black Templar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. Which is fine, but it somewhat stifles my creativity: if I am going to spend all that money getting a codex that basically is 70 percent fluff and only 30 percent usable material to a DIY chapter (the army list), then I will be more tempted to just use the codex fluff and paint scheme. I dunno, that is just kinda my impression.

[LeeHarvey]

All that has been said thus far I see as truth. The only reason I liked the traits is that it gave a sense of game-sanctioned-credibility to the fluffy forces, encouraging a little more personalization and customization. There is virtually no reason to have a DIY chapter anymore aside from painting reasons. If you want different rules, you have to get the codex for Black Templar, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. Which is fine, but it somewhat stifles my creativity: if I am going to spend all that money getting a codex that basically is 70 percent fluff and only 30 percent usable material to a DIY chapter (the army list), then I will be more tempted to just use the codex fluff and paint scheme. I dunno, that is just kinda my impression.


Me too. The greatest part (for me) of building my Space Marine army was that I could make it my own. Now I just have to go along with the crowd and I feel like my army has lost the majority of it's individuality. I have been creating homebrew units to regain that sense of uniqueness, but that doesn't do me any good if I actually had an interest in playing competitively (I doubt if they would let me with my army anyway, lol). I just think we lost something important when the codex was rewritten. Just my opinion, people can call me a power gamer all they want (anybody who says they don't like winning is lying), but it wasn't about making an unbeatable list, just one that was different from the run of the mill.

[Morr]

I fully agree that the traits added personality etc but you can do that without the need for traits. for example i run lots of land speeders. I don't win often but i like the flavor. the only thing traits did was give people an advantage in using fluff. as for stifling creativity, surly it encourages creativity as you have to do some work to be different as apposed to just picking certain advantages for your chapter to have. Sure its not as clear cut but it means people are playing D.I.Y for the fun not the gaming capability.

Be Swift As The Wind:
The commander lets you do this just without special abilities.

Blessed Be The Warriors:
Use Blood angels list otherwise,when isnt 3 assault squads enough?

Cleanse and Purify:
This one is lost fair enough.

Heed the wisdom of the Ancients:
Again you HQ can let you do this.

Never Despair:
With random game length anyway it makes little difference.

No Mercy No Respite:
Flavorful? No, For gaming purposes only.

Purity Above All:
FNP tactical squads? CSM need some dignity left. we cant steal every thing.

Take The Fight To Them:
Use wolves or templars as their lists will be far more suitable.

Scion Of Mars:
You already have the master of the forge.

See But Dont Be Seen:
Nice on this, true shame it went but it would be overpowered.

Suffer Not The Alien To Live:
Too much combined abuse with others. Only tailored lists benefit from this.

Suffer Not The Works Of Heretics:
Purely gaming benefit.

Trust In Your Battle Brothers:
Mostly void in the new rules.

Uphold The Honor Of The Emperor:
With the amount of cover save about its almost obsolete.

Most of these can be incorporated into the current rules. The ones which cant mostly were for gaming benefit and as such you haven't lost any fluff.

It would be nice to have a chart from which to judge your chapters character etc or to use as a guideline when picking units but otherwise players haven't really lost anything relevant in this section of the codex. Fundamentally there are no armies impossible to be incorporated.

[The_Peacemaker]

well all my guys have bolt pistols and ccw's, so thats my main beef. And the stupid 10man tactical squad to get the heavy weapon and special weapon.


But there is still alot of customization in the new SM dex. ALOT more then the chaos codex....

I'm just not a fan of the muxt have X number of guys in the squad to take this weapon. Heck, let every terminator in the squad take an assault cannon for 30pts each. The option is there but then your Terminators become 70pt models!

I don't really like being forced to take Veteren Sergents.

[Fce Cmmr Sangre]

I fully agree that the traits added personality etc but you can do that without the need for traits. for example i run lots of land speeders. I don't win often but i like the flavor. the only thing traits did was give people an advantage in using fluff. as for stifling creativity, surly it encourages creativity as you have to do some work to be different as apposed to just picking certain advantages for your chapter to have. Sure its not as clear cut but it means people are playing D.I.Y for the fun not the gaming capability.

Be Swift As The Wind:
The commander lets you do this just without special abilities.

Blessed Be The Warriors:
Use Blood angels list otherwise,when isnt 3 assault squads enough?

Cleanse and Purify:
This one is lost fair enough.

Heed the wisdom of the Ancients:
Again you HQ can let you do this.

Never Despair:
With random game length anyway it makes little difference.

No Mercy No Respite:
Flavorful? No, For gaming purposes only.

Purity Above All:
FNP tactical squads? CSM need some dignity left. we cant steal every thing.

Take The Fight To Them:
Use wolves or templars as their lists will be far more suitable.

Scion Of Mars:
You already have the master of the forge.

See But Dont Be Seen:
Nice on this, true shame it went but it would be overpowered.

Suffer Not The Alien To Live:
Too much combined abuse with others. Only tailored lists benefit from this.

Suffer Not The Works Of Heretics:
Purely gaming benefit.

Trust In Your Battle Brothers:
Mostly void in the new rules.

Uphold The Honor Of The Emperor:
With the amount of cover save about its almost obsolete.

Most of these can be incorporated into the current rules. The ones which cant mostly were for gaming benefit and as such you haven't lost any fluff.

It would be nice to have a chart from which to judge your chapters character etc or to use as a guideline when picking units but otherwise players haven't really lost anything relevant in this section of the codex. Fundamentally there are no armies impossible to be incorporated.

Use the Blood Angels list? The Black Templars list?

... The Space Wolves list?

That's an elaborate joke, right?

[Diagnosis Ninja]

ugh, if all you power gamers got past the fact it's a game, I'm pretty sure you would agree.

[Fce Cmmr Sangre]

Liking a unified rule structure with equally competitive, customiseable and fun lists makes me a powergamer?

[Todosi]

Liking a unified rule structure with equally competitive, customiseable and fun lists makes me a powergamer?

In a way, yes. The problem I see with most people's understanding of this game is they want it to be "Magic: The Gathering". It is not now nor never has been a tournament game or a competitive game. It was designed to be a beer and pretzels narrative game. And before anyone throws out the fact that GW runs tournaments, I get it. I know, but the fact is if you read any of the literature the company has published, speak with any of the designers you will see that their overall goal from day one was to create a narrative based game. NOT a tournament based game.

That's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[FoxPhoenix135]

I don't think myself a powergamer in the slightest just because I want a game system to be fair. Yes, the game was ORIGINALLY designed to be a narrative game, but it has since evolved into a tournament game, and that requires just and fair rules. Lets not compare monkeys to amoebas. I think everybody is getting WAY off topic besides, my original post was to stimulate discussion as to alternatives to the traits, not their powergamer cheesiness or their legality. For those of you who did contribute on topic, you know who you are so that comment was not directed to you.

[ace2666]

Liking a unified rule structure with equally competitive, customiseable and fun lists makes me a powergamer?

In a way, yes. The problem I see with most people's understanding of this game is they want it to be "Magic: The Gathering". It is not now nor never has been a tournament game or a competitive game. It was designed to be a beer and pretzels narrative game. And before anyone throws out the fact that GW runs tournaments, I get it. I know, but the fact is if you read any of the literature the company has published, speak with any of the designers you will see that their overall goal from day one was to create a narrative based game. NOT a tournament based game.

That's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

You know what, if you think about it, you're right. As a regular RPG gamer this makes complete sense. All you have to do is look at 3rd edition or apocalypse to see it. Special scenarios and different or no organization charts. A push to do campaigns and just to have fun. Honestly, how many times in war does one have a "balanced" battle? Never.

To me the narrative game is the most fun and all the players I play with are RPG players. I also play Magic, and the recycle rate of warhammer and its rule set do NOT make it suitable for for tournament play, thus the player rating system was created.

Good job sir! You are now my sig. (Hope you don't mind)

On topic: The trait system was alright. The new SC system isn't much better but then all you have to do is think about your army and find out what makes it different. No other current codices, as far as I know, have a trait like system. So, just try to make something diffrent. It's not that hard.

For example: my SM are a very tactical, no glory, hardend fighters, that use razor backs and dreads. Their normal way of doing battle is using hot landings with transport thunderhawks. Thus i use Pedro, stern guard, MotF, dreads, tac marines, and a lot of razorbacks. I plan also to use LS storms and some scouts to go with the hot landing theme. It's a very different from normal list and still competitive.

[Baragash]

Question answered, now off topic and potentially flammable.