IG Dawn of War Deployment

[Biker1999]

I'm a bit confused with the rules for the Dawn of War deployment for the Guard. You are basically allowed to initially deploy 1 command and 2 troop selections. A troop choice for the Guard can be quite huge including a command squad, multiple units of infantry and heavy weapons platforms. It appears that the Guard can pretty much deploy everything except their vehicles with Dawn of War. Do the heavy weapons squads have to stay in cohesion of the infantry they are deployed with? Am I getting this at all? Thanks!

[honersstodnt]

the wording is that you may deploy 2 troop units, and 1 hq unit. that means you can deploy two seperate troop units... such as a 20 man guard unit and a platoon command, along with the HQ command.

a platoon command + chimera also counts as 2 units, because the chimera is one unit, while the actual platoon command is another.

[smacky]

hmmm
it actually says two troop units??? thats kind of lame.. lol

[Irakax]

He then can deploy up to two units from his troops selections

Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

To me this means the entire Infantry Platoon. What I quoted from the codex seems pretty specific. It was put there so people would know to deploy the whole group at once, most important for Dawn of War games.

And your Heavy Weapons squad does not have to be in unit coherance with other squads in a Platoon. They are different squads, and could technically be placed on completely opposite sides of the board.

The Chimera and it's squad make up an interesting question. Yes they are two different units, but there's the following:

These "dedicated transports" do not use up a slot on the force organisaton chart.

The guard codex reiterates this saying that Chimeras do not take up a force organisation slot, but otherwise function as seperate units. So because a squad and it's dedicated transport make up one force organisation slot, to me they count as one unit for the purposes of Dawn of War. This is an interpretation though, it never explicitly states this.

[Tarion]

[quote=Irakax]

He then can deploy up to two units from his troops selections

Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

To me this means the entire Infantry Platoon. What I quoted from the codex seems pretty specific. It was put there so people would know to deploy the whole group at once, most important for Dawn of War games.

And your Heavy Weapons squad does not have to be in unit coherance with other squads in a Platoon. They are different squads, and could technically be placed on completely opposite sides of the board.

The Chimera and it's squad make up an interesting question. Yes they are two different units, but there's the following:

These "dedicated transports" do not use up a slot on the force organisaton chart.

The guard codex reiterates this saying that Chimeras do not take up a force organisation slot, but otherwise function as seperate units. So because a squad and it's dedicated transport make up one force organisation slot, to me they count as one unit for the purposes of Dawn of War. This is an interpretation though, it never explicitly states this.[/quote:3r03v6y7]I think you're mixing up your terminology. You need to differentiate between units and choices from the Force Organisation chart.

Units with transports are a single choice, but are two separate units.
Infantry Platoons are the same.

Now, according to the rulebook, you deploy units.

[Brother Mord]

Don't forget though that the Guard Codex speaks of the platoon being a single troop choice "when deploying". Since almost all troop choices in other codexes are single units I can see GW not using the proper wording to include this concept when writing the DOW deployment rules.

I have to agree with Irakax here, the entire platoon is one "unit"---"when deploying" (per guard codex).

Thats my take but I can see room for arguement.

Also I think in terms of deployment and even game play when a unit is inside a transport both units are considered one unit until the unit leaves the trasport. So I would consider a squad inside a trasport as one unit for deployment purposes. A unit inside a transport is considered as one unit when rolling for reserves and such so I don't see why it would be different for deployment in this case.

[Irakax]

@ Tarion: So you are saying that because it specifically says "Units" that you can deploy only two units i.e. Platoon Command Squad and transport? I guess that's what it would have to be using RAW... but I was interpreting the "units from the troops selections," 'selections' being the key word, to mean that a troop selection is one choice on the force organization chart, so that if you picked two units from your FOC, you'd be picking 2 troops choices. You're taking it by RAW... I'm interpreting it. I guess technically you are correct.

But why would the Imperial Guard codex specifically state the stuff about deploying? It makes sense to say that an infantry platoon counts as one choice on the FOC, but why would they have to state the part, deployed as one group? It wouldn't really make a difference for Pitched Battle or Spearhead, the only time when something like this would matter is in DOW missions. So to me they said deployed as one group so that people wouldn't be confused in DOW missions and be having the debate we are having now.

But this is still ambiguous, and thus this discussion. Am I interpreting the rules too much? There always seems to be a battle between interpretation and RAW. Things need to be clearer I guess they're perfectly clear if you take it as RAW, it's just that it doesn't make sense, and things conflict.

EDIT: And he brings up a good point, the rolling for reserves idea. Infantry platoons are rolled for as one unit when rolling for reserves, so shouldn't they come in all together in DOW missions? It would be breaking this idea to have half the platoon on the board to start the game, and the other half coming in on your board edge as per the DOW rules.

[Baragash]

I'm inclined* to agree with Irakax regarding infantry platoons (based on the evidence here and having noticed that previously myself).

Regarding Dedicated Transports though, (IIRC) p67 is the wrong quote, and there is a further point elsewhere in the rules that makes it clear unit + DT = 2 units. Perhaps someone can see if they can find anything?

*ie, I'd like to look at it in detail again, so am not committing myself to a position

[Tarion]

But why would the Imperial Guard codex specifically state the stuff about deploying? It makes sense to say that an infantry platoon counts as one choice on the FOC, but why would they have to state the part, deployed as one group? It wouldn't really make a difference for Pitched Battle or Spearhead, the only time when something like this would matter is in DOW missions. So to me they said deployed as one group so that people wouldn't be confused in DOW missions and be having the debate we are having now.

I'll admit, I think you've swayed me. The significance of the section on deployment hadn't occurred to me (Still stuck in a 4th edition mentality, where you deploy by the unit, instead of all at once)

[MGRockwell]

It seems like that is correct due to the codex lingo, however - how is that fair when if you have a Tactical Squad split into two Combat Squads (one of which is meant to ride in a Razorback) and that takes up 3 'units'?

5 Space Marines count as a unit. Up to 141 Guardsmen count as a unit?

[Phail]

RAW says platoon is unit and the very cliche saying "codex overrides rulebook" is appropriate - however MG's point makes me think it would just be insane that you can deploy 2 whole infantry platoons and your command squad in DOW

[MGRockwell]

RAW says platoon is unit and the very cliche saying "codex overrides rulebook" is appropriate - however MG's point makes me think it would just be insane that you can deploy 2 whole infantry platoons and your command squad in DOW

If you were running infantry guard you could very easily deploy an entire 2500 point army, while a Space Marine player may have a Razorback with a Chaplain and a Combat Squad inside.

[MC Tic Tac]

Each infantry platoon counts as a single Force Organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively whenrolling for reseves

To me this says each individual unit in the platoon counts towards DoW deployment type as it mentions only the FO chart, and DoW deployment mentions mulitiple units as a single FO entry do count as seperate units.

But still that can be 55 or 56 men easliy thanks to the combined squad rule.

[Phail]

hmm Tic Tac makes a good point and i want to agree with him tbh

[Irakax]

Regarding Dedicated Transports though, (IIRC) p67 is the wrong quote, and there is a further point elsewhere in the rules that makes it clear unit + DT = 2 units. Perhaps someone can see if they can find anything?

I looked briefly and couldn't find anything... Maybe you are thinking of the shooting a transport then assaulting the occupants, stating you can only do that, instead of shooting to kill a transport and then shooting with the remaining weapons of that squad to take out the now exposed occupants? That's all I could think of, but that was also on page 67 right above the previous quote. Like I said I looked briefly though, so I probably missed what you are thinking of.

MGRockwell brings up a good point though. I don't know much about the Space Marines, but aren't combat squads one Tactical (or other) squad that is broken into 2 smaller squads? So wouldn't they take up only one spot on the FOC, but still be 2 units? Thus going by RAW you could only deploy 2 of the smaller combat squads as MGRockwell said. I guess the way IG gets around this is the specific codex entry, and if the Space Marine codex doesn't say deployed at one time, well then I guess that's too bad

Does seem a little overpowered though doesn't it? Two Infantry Platoons vs. 10 Space Marines?

Space Marine player may have a Razorback with a Chaplain and a Combat Squad inside.

Is a Razorback a dedicated transport? Because by what we said earlier, a Razorback and it's squad count as one choice on the FOC. But they're two units. And there's nothing in the codex specifying they must be deployed together. HMMM. Seems like the same problem as Combat squads. Kind of.

So I am unsure on the ruling concerning Dedicated tranports. Maybe once we find what Baragash was thinking of we could make a better decision.

[MC Tic Tac]

Multiple Unit Choices:
Note that occasionally Codexs allow the player to include several units at the cost of a single Force Orgnasiona Slot (Like Dedicated Transports, etc). Apart from being brought as a single choice these units operate and count as seperate units in ALL respects..

So yes a dedicated transport counts as a second Troops unit for purposes of DoW deployment, that or all GW UK GT's for the last few years have had it wrong.

[Irakax]

MC Tic Tac, that throws a wrench into everything now

So we know for sure Dedicated tranports count as seperate units, but now we have to go back and question the whole Platoon thing. It says in all respects- but the all respects thing is overruled by the deploy and roll for reserves as one group thing... so again conflicting rules.

[Godlyness]

It seems like that is correct due to the codex lingo, however - how is that fair when if you have a Tactical Squad split into two Combat Squads (one of which is meant to ride in a Razorback) and that takes up 3 'units'?

5 Space Marines count as a unit. Up to 141 Guardsmen count as a unit?

well Ig has always had more men on the table then any other force (maybe not nids but there not technically men) and a single space marine should be able to take on 10 men right? . some thing about they drop in and do that thing of sucide missions and come out on top

dont get me wrong fluff and Game have nothing to do with each other but still.

Ot they come in collectively for reserves, why would they not be placed at the start the same?

"hey you do you know where out Co is at? ya know the guy telling us what to do?"
"yeah he got lost in the dark he will meet up with us later"
"so were supposed to defend this postion with 20 men and that angery commisar"
"yep thats our job lets hope our enemy is as jacked up as we are"
"fragg that i am out of here"
"Did You say you were leaving soldier"
"no Commisar lord i did not"
"thought so"

[Baragash]

Cheers Tic Tac, that's exactly the quote I was thinking of.

Regarding the platoon issue...have been pondering it at work:
The key here, for me, is "is there anything that requires the platoon to deploy all elements at the same time?".

Counting as one selection on a FoC isn't that requirement (supported by the p92 quote). As long as the answer to the above question is "no", then I would say that you are in the same situation as a squad with a DT, or SM CSs, and you would deploy part of the platoon (IIRC, in the last Codex there was an additional line that has now been removed).

If the answer to the above question is "yes", then you simply can't deploy a platoon at the start of the game (remember, you don't have to deploy anything in DoW, so there is no rules conflict).

Yes, this is a reversal of my previous position.

[MC Tic Tac]

The thing is every 'part' of a IG platoon is a 'Unit' DoW only ever refers to 'units' not FO chart selections.

Examples of 2 Troops and a Hq

SM Tactical Squad, Scout Squad, Captain

CSM Squad, Rhino, Chaos lord

IG: Infantry Squad, Platoon Command Squad, Commissar Lord

IG: Infantry Squad (Merged), A Chimera from one Merged Squads, Company Command Squad

IG: Heavy Weapon Squad, Special Weapon Squad, Company Command Squad

IG: Infantry Squad, Chimera for Infatry Squad, Commissar Lord

IG: Platoon Command Squad, Chimera for Platoon Command Squad, Primarius Psyker