The Harridan

[Pox]

ok time for some rules lawyers to step in: bit of confusion over the ol Harridan and his rules - and alas the FAQ has not solved it. (where is Bara when you need him.) Their has been some debate whether or not the Harridan counts as a flyer (and thus benefits from the flying rules.)

The issue:

OK in imperial armour 4: Amphelian Project

The Harridan must be taken as it's own detachment like super heavy war machines (like baneblades and maruader bombers etc.) and under special rules it is listed as a Gargantian creature and seperatly as a Flyer (though hit on normal BS rather then 6's)

moving on, it says it has 2 bio-cannons, can transport 12 gargoyles (which detach if hit by a blast weapon.) Fearless etc.

Now under "Scything talons" it details that "a Harridan may use its scything claws to swoop down on the enemy and attack in close combat..After the attacks are resolved using the creature's strength and rolling 2D6 for penetration, the Harridan then flies off using the normal Flyer rules."

so far so good.

In Imperial Armour Apocalpse:

It is listed as "Unit type: Gargantian creature."

now because it is not listed as "Gargantian creature, flyer." some people have claimed therefore it is not a flyer.

it still has 2 bio-cannons, still transports 12 gargoyles (that flap off if hit by blast weapons.) still has scything talons, still comes in 1-3 war machine detachements etc.

now it does have the Special rule:
"FLYER: the Harridan can fly up to 24" per turn."

it doesn't say move 24" a turn, but fly - do you think this is quite deliberate?

obviously all the fluff etc support it as a flyer (and in epic also) but as it does not say unit type : Gargantian creature/flyer does this mean it is not a flyer?

also he is aprox 300 point more expensive in Apoc then he is in IA4.

NOTE: An'GGRATH the Unbound (lord of the bloodthirsters)
has the special rule:
Deamonic Flight: "he may move as if he had a jump pack."

so some help needed - Poxy.

[Architech]

I think the special rule FLYER:..... solves this for me. Unless there's something missing it seems that is the answer

[Sybrite]

I asked this before. and was brought to the conclusion harridan is NO-Longer a flyer

-Unit Type = Gargantuan

-It's "Flyer" Special Rule is defined rather than pointing you back to the Apoc book (or imperial armour...) to reference a "flyer" characteristic. as it was referenced in previous edition

really sucks for the harridan to not be an actual flyer, but then again it didn't really gain much by being one (was still hit at standard BS, it only lost the 12" to weapons' range).

[Pox]

I asked this before. and was brought to the conclusion harridan is NO-Longer a flyer

-Unit Type = Gargantuan

-It's "Flyer" Special Rule is defined rather than pointing you back to the Apoc book (or imperial armour...) to reference a "flyer" characteristic. as it was referenced in previous edition

really sucks for the harridan to not be an actual flyer, but then again it didn't really gain much by being one (was still hit at standard BS, it only lost the 12" to weapons' range).

thing is the "FLYER" special rule is defined as the ability to "fly up to 24" not move, count as jump infantry, but "fly" the only model i know to have that exact wording and not mention anything about landing/difficult terrain.

and since it makes no mention of the BS thing, it would benefit from being only hit on 6's and of course not being able to be assualted. Which are both big things - since it ain't that tough (i could take it down in one turn with plasma/lascannons damn quickly.)

The trygon in apoc could technically be destroyed by deepstriking onto some grots, but the FAQ then goes to point back at IA4 and say that makes no sense use the old rules for his deepstriking = move unit out way unless super heavy tank/gargantian creature.

I just doubt that GW would change it from being a flyer to suddenly not being a flyer - since it makes no sense being anything else.

[Sybrite]

seems GW's been simplifying lots of Apoc unit rules.
and while I also believe that the Harridan should be a Flyer, there really isn't much to support that.
They could just as easily wrote(cut/paste) in that "The Harridan is a flyer and uses the Flyer rules," like it did in IA4. but they took that out and replaced it with something completely different "fly upto 24 inches per turn" in IAApoc.
where before it had specific rules that stated it was a gargantuan & a flyer but shots hit it on standard BS instead of 6's, as well as that it could assault. Now it's just a Gargantuan moves/flies 24" which is a simple and quick way to write it without having to take up more space with other special rules to explain why it can assault and be hit at regular BS checks...

Also flyer vehicles don't "Fly" or 'move' either, they are just placed at a new possition on the battlefield that has to be more than 36" away from it's last possition.

One thing I've learned about GW and how it write/re-writes it rules it that often the new rules have little to no barring upon the older rules.

I'd don't fault them for the typos but It does suck that they sometimes leave out sublte things that were taken for granted before which leads to confusion later. (like using 'fly' instead of 'moves as jump pack')

there are other cases of a unit's special rules sharing the same name as other game rules but have different effects.
- WH Seraphim's 'Hit and Run' & DE Grotesques' 'Feel No Pain' not the same as the those in the Univeral Special Rules

With that in mind, it sucks but RAW for the harridan don't make it a real flyer, it's just the title they gave to one of it's personal special rules and IMO pretty clear that it's not intended to be a real flyer either

Another unit that's suffered from having it's rules butchered and oversimplified is the Meotic Spore... they used to have some good rules making them great for downing flyers, now they just pop and give up a few acid mines.

while on the other hand, the Malanthrope was mading into a Monstrous Creature during it's simplifying which helps its out alot since before its attacks allowed armor saves. As well has a Static number of attacks in CC rather than a few lines detailing a random number each turn.

[MalkThe2nd]

Personally the word fly does it for me. If I can give Valks fly and hover in WD I'm not going to make someone walk such an expensive model over GWs inability to make half of anything they put out make any sense.

Once IA and Apoc are involved, we shouldn't be worried about every little interpretation IMO

[Pox]

Well thinking it all through and talking with the GW staff - seems the Harridan is NOT a flyer so does not have to stay in reserve, does not get to deploy anywhere or fly off the board, can assualt etc.

BUT

due to his special rule of flyer which says he "can fly up to 24" and makes no mention of landing/difficult terrain unlike the bloodthirster - thus if he is flying you hit him on 6's only, deduct 12" from range and can't assualt him. (like all other flying objects.) Of course he can land and move 12" like any other gargantian creature if he wants - but why on earth would he want too?

Since he is not a flyer he can assualt, follows all the normal rules for gargantian creatures etc.

seems to make the most sense actually when you think about it. Most of the "flyer" rules are for vehicles and the Harridan is clearly not one - and he is regarded as slower then most flyers - thus the lesser speed.

so in essence Yes he flies but No he is not a flyer.

[Sybrite]

HUH?!?

he's not a flyer, but you use the better half of the flyer rules anyway? how's that work?

sorry, I just don't see that making any sense.

[Durandal]

HUH?!?

he's not a flyer, but you use the better half of the flyer rules anyway? how's that work?

sorry, I just don't see that making any sense.

He is a gaurgantuan creature that, under a special rule, does not have to move as normal GCs do, but may fly. so, for movement at least, he follows the rules for flying. I believe the "hit on 6s, etc" rules apply to units that flew in the movement phase. So, he can move 12" like any normal GC, or he may fly up to 24", and gain the bonuses for flying in the movement phase..

[Architech]

That's rather good for sense...makes the unit better...as you are not overly restricted in either way.

[Sybrite]

I guess where this "flying" concept trips me up the most is where is that from?

Flyers (the vehicle type) donot move "upto 24 inches" they are "placed anywhere on the table... but the new position must be more than 36 inches away from its former position."

the closest to this I've found are eldar flyers like the nightwing interceptor whose special rule is 'impossible manoeuvers' but even there its movement is listed as 'minimum of 18" rather than the usual 36 for flyers' and not 'upto'. i.e. Flyers have minimum not maximum movements like the harridan.

so the movement methods don't even come close, IMO giving the harridan a special rule called 'flyer' was just bad author/editing since even in the rule descriptions the two types of Flyer rules are nothing alike and have no link beyond name.

again I believe the harridan should have flyer rules but it just doesn't have enough text (explicit exceptions) to support that anymore, and the description is does have isn't in the same ball park of what a flyer uses for movement.

[Pox]

HUH?!?

he's not a flyer, but you use the better half of the flyer rules anyway? how's that work?

sorry, I just don't see that making any sense.

well it's not the better half per-se he can't land anwhere on the board (right behind a baneblade for instance.) or detach and re-land anywhere else on the board - so he is a lot slower/less agile then a true flier.

it's pretty simply now when i look at it - lots of the gargantian creature and flier rules clash - fliers cannot assualt, suffer damage on the vehicle chart etc whereas Gargantian creatures obviously CAN assualt and don't suffer damage on the vehicle chart (again obviously.)

so since all the flier rules are designed explicitly with vehicles in mind, he is not a flier (which would not make sense because of the rules clashes etc.) IF he was a flier they then they would need to explain that he can't land anywhere on the board, he can assualt, he can only move 24" (if he wants too.) he does not take damage on the vehicle chart - like a gargantian creature he is immune ot psycic powers that do not use a STR rating etc etc - basically they would have to explicitly point out which gargantian creature rules and which flier rules he was using (which would be a bit messy.) Since he is not a flier they can avoid all of that and simply state he is using gargantian creature rules only.

Now under his special rule "Flyer" which explicitly states that he may FLY - if he choses to do this (which is of course only an option - but a damn good one.) then he must be treated as a flying target - so 6's to hit, can't assualt etc.

he does not HAVE to fly, but may choose to - the reduced speed represents both the fact that he is slower then planes (as mentioned in IA4) and also that he could hover in one place (using wings rather then a jet engine.)

So in essence him being a Gargantian creature that happens to fly - basically swiftly and nimbly avoids all the rules clashes between Gargantian creature and Flier whilst still alowing him to fly which is actually quite clever of GW.

again I believe the harridan should have flyer rules but it just doesn't have enough text (explicit exceptions) to support that anymore, and the description is does have isn't in the same ball park of what a flyer uses for movement.

the fact it says "FLYER - it may fly" is quite deliberate on GW's part (in allowing it to fly whilst not being a Flyer - thus avoiding rules clashes as said earlier.) no other entrant has such a description. As previously mentioned the lord of the bloodthirsters has deamonic flight and counts as jump pack infantry, all other winged nids again count as jump infantry - IF they just wanted him to travel a bit faster then a normal Gargantian creature they would just say he counted as jump infantry but could move 24"- but they don't. It's not to inconceivalbe to say the mode of flying is so different - as he flys with giant wings, thus able to hover, swoop etc whilst all the vehicle flyers are jets etc - just consider the difference between how a bird flies and how a jet flies.

[Sybrite]

again, not to sound like a broken record but where are you getting this?

Now under his special rule "Flyer" which explicitly states that he may FLY - if he choses to do this (which is of course only an option - but a damn good one.) then he must be treated as a flying target - so 6's to hit, can't assualt etc.
there's nothing about 'Flying Targets' only being hit on 6's; it's "When shooting at a flyer all models need a 6 to score a hit" & "when measuring range to a flyer, all weapons' maximum range is reduced by 12" (apocalypse rule book, pg94)
As the Harridan's flyer special rule is not the same as the Flyer vehicle type, it does not get the benefit of being hit on 6's nor the hinderance of always starting in reserves etc... I can't see how anyone could just pick and choose parts of a rule to apply or discard in this kind of situtation without there being additional text to support any of it.

he does not HAVE to fly, but may choose to - the reduced speed represents both the fact that he is slower then planes (as mentioned in IA4) and also that he could hover in one place (using wings rather then a jet engine.)
back in IA4, when the harridan had actual counted as a flyer it's own special rules stated that it was gliding so it was hit via regular BS rather than only on 6's

the fact it says "FLYER - it may fly" is quite deliberate on GW's part (in allowing it to fly whilst not being a Flyer - thus avoiding rules clashes as said earlier.) no other entrant has such a description. As previously mentioned the lord of the bloodthirsters has deamonic flight and counts as jump pack infantry, all other winged nids again count as jump infantry - IF they just wanted him to travel a bit faster then a normal Gargantian creature they would just say he counted as jump infantry but could move 24"- but they don't. It's not to inconceivalbe to say the mode of flying is so different - as he flys with giant wings, thus able to hover, swoop etc whilst all the vehicle flyers are jets etc - just consider the difference between how a bird flies and how a jet flies.
just as easily as they said that blood thirster is a jump pack, they could have written in the exceptions and special cases of treating the harridan as a Flyer (heck they did in IA4 and IAApoc). For that purpose of not writing in any additional rules for the harridan's movement is why I think it's a typo(brainfart) they left out so much when it's really not that hard to cut/paste or otherwise copy lines of text...

I'm really not sure what to make of the 'may fly upto 24" in a turn' bit, as I said before I'm just chaulking that up to a typo (Don't have one, nor does anyone at the LGS's I frequent, but I'm thinking its winged so treat it like other models with wings as a jump packer, though it would still be a silly to have it take wounds from dangerous terrain given it's size). But I've e-mailed Forgeworld's rule queries section about what the harridan and later on today I'll meet up with the guys and gals at my LGS and try to convince them too do the same. Not so much to spam them with inqueries but to show there is some interest for an answer maybe get lucky and get an FAQ on this.

[Pox]

I'm really not sure what to make of the 'may fly upto 24" in a turn' bit, as I said before I'm just chaulking that up to a typo (Don't have one, nor does anyone at the LGS's I frequent, but I'm thinking its winged so treat it like other models with wings as a jump packer, though it would still be a silly to have it take wounds from dangerous terrain given it's size). But I've e-mailed Forgeworld's rule queries section about what the harridan and later on today I'll meet up with the guys and gals at my LGS and try to convince them too do the same. Not so much to spam them with inqueries but to show there is some interest for an answer maybe get lucky and get an FAQ on this.

don't bother i just phoned forgeworld customer services (since the site says they proberly won't respond to e-mails.) - and they confirmed it counts as a flyer in regards to being shot at etc - didn't know they did rules queries but Smurfy said i should phone up.

*feels better that is resolved, and glad anyone else phoning FW would get the same result.*

FYI - though when i phoned up GW like ten minutes prior to FW, they didn't have the book but said he would proberly just be an extra fast gargantuan creature but was unsure as it was not a GW model.

can DEFINATLY see where the confusion lies on this, and agree they should make an FAQ on it! but since it is a Forgeworld model and Forgeworld rules will take the forgeworld ruling.