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  1. #1

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    Cato Sicarius

    Let me first state that I am new to the game, so I apologize if this is a question with an obvious answer, but I am looking at all the various options I have and want to make sure I make my army as efficiently as possible. So...here goes...

    Cato's Rites of Battle rule states that all other Space Marines units can his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

    The rules for Morale check modifiers state that they reduce the unit's Leadership value by -1, -2, or more.

    Does this mean that any Space Marine unit would always make Morale and Pinning tests with a Leadership of 10, assuming that Cato's Leadership was, at the time of the test, a 10, regardless of how many casualties the unit suffered?

    I ask this because of the way the rules are stated. The Morale check modifiers would apply to the unit's Leadership, but the unit is not using its own Leadership, so would the penalties apply to Cato's Leadership, even though they should not?

    Also, a simpler question, just for clarification, if I am playing Space Marines and field Cato, and my friend is playing Space Wolves, do his Space Wolves use Cato's Leadership as well, or just other Space Marines in the Space Marines Codex?

    Thanks in advance to any who take the time to help me out here.

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  2. #2
    sayles78's Avatar
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    Re: Cato Sicarius

    Originally Posted by Varulus
    Let me first state that I am new to the game, so I apologize if this is a question with an obvious answer, but I am looking at all the various options I have and want to make sure I make my army as efficiently as possible. So...here goes...

    Cato's Rites of Battle rule states that all other Space Marines units can his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

    The rules for Morale check modifiers state that they reduce the unit's Leadership value by -1, -2, or more.

    Does this mean that any Space Marine unit would always make Morale and Pinning tests with a Leadership of 10, assuming that Cato's Leadership was, at the time of the test, a 10, regardless of how many casualties the unit suffered?

    I ask this because of the way the rules are stated. The Morale check modifiers would apply to the unit's Leadership, but the unit is not using its own Leadership, so would the penalties apply to Cato's Leadership, even though they should not?

    Also, a simpler question, just for clarification, if I am playing Space Marines and field Cato, and my friend is playing Space Wolves, do his Space Wolves use Cato's Leadership as well, or just other Space Marines in the Space Marines Codex?

    Thanks in advance to any who take the time to help me out here.
    The models LD value who is taking the morale check counts as 10, then apply any modifiers as normal.

    Your 2nd question is a more complicated question! We always play it so Sicarius' rules would only affect any marines deemed to be ultramarines. This kind of question also comes up when using chapter tactics with 2 or more factions of Space marines i.e. Ultramarines and Raven Guard on the same side. Each faction should choose it's own chapter tactics, which then only applies to that faction. Some people pick ONE chapter tactics which apply to all factions. i.e my Ultramarines would become FLEET because of Captain Shrike, but then Raven Guard could also use Sicarius' LD. It is open to interpretation, as technically, all the space marines are on the same side and are chosen from one codex. It's up to you how you play this one, but doing it our way as a better FEEL about it.

    Why so serious?
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  3. #3
    The Truth Architech's Avatar
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    Re: Cato Sicarius

    You apply the leadership penalties as normal to the 10 given by Sicarius.

    The second question is a simple "NO" you do not apply your general's leadership bonus to an enemy....especially an enemy that doesn't use the same codex.

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  4. #4
    xJoshy Bear's Avatar
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    Re: Cato Sicarius

    Originally Posted by sayles78
    The models LD value who is taking the morale check counts as 10, then apply any modifiers as normal.

    Your 2nd question is a more complicated question! We always play it so Sicarius' rules would only affect any marines deemed to be ultramarines. This kind of question also comes up when using chapter tactics with 2 or more factions of Space marines i.e. Ultramarines and Raven Guard on the same side. Each faction should choose it's own chapter tactics, which then only applies to that faction. Some people pick ONE chapter tactics which apply to all factions. i.e my Ultramarines would become FLEET because of Captain Shrike, but then Raven Guard could also use Sicarius' LD. It is open to interpretation, as technically, all the space marines are on the same side and are chosen from one codex. It's up to you how you play this one, but doing it our way as a better FEEL about it.
    It isn't open to multiple interpretations, there is only one. The army benefits from both Shrike and Sicarius. Sicarius's ability isn't tied to combat tactics, same with the other Ultramarine characters.

    To answer the original poster, you use Cato's ld 10, unless Cato's leadership is modified, in which case you use the better leadership. Cato's ability only affects your army, not your opponent regardless if they are Space Marines.

    The poster formerly known as GAT.
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  5. #5

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    Re: Cato Sicarius

    Thanks for the responses.

    From what I can tell, it is generally accepted that allied Space Marines can use Cato's Leadership for Morale and Pinning tests, but Space Marines that use other codexes would not gain this benefit, and neither would an opponent, even if they are playing Space Marines out of the same codex. This seems to not go by the exact wording of the ability, but it certainly makes more sense than using the exact wording.

    Also, it seems to be generally accepted that a unit would use Cato's Leadership of 10, and then modify it appropriately for the circumstances. As stated, I am new to the game, but this is something that I would argue with, as it hurts the ability, and goes against the way the ability it stated.

    The ability is simply stated: If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning tests.

    Sicarius' Leadership should not be modified unless he is in the unit in question, so I would argue that he should bestow his Leadership of 10 to any Space Marine making a Morale or Pinning test, unmodified by modifiers that would lessen or heighten that unit's Leadership, as those effects would most likely not effect Sicarius. At the same time, if the opponent uses a psychic power to lessen Sicarius' Leadership to 7, then he would only be able to bestow a 7, rather than a 10, but should still replace that unit's modified Leadership for the test in question.

    My stance is supported by the wording of the rules, but being new, I would really like to get some support on this, or else be given a link to some official errata or FAQ that clarifies the ability.

    Again, any input is appreciated. I want the Space Marines to be as strong as possible, which is why I would like to use the wording of rules for our benefit.

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  6. #6
    STS17's Avatar
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    Re: Cato Sicarius

    This is a classic example of GW's unclear writing in most cases. As you gain experience with the game and become familiar with more codices you will find more and more of these ambiguities.

    The rule states that the unit may use his leadership instead of their own when taking an applicable test. However a leadership modifier does not directly increase or decrease the unit's leadership, but effects the leadership value the check is made with.

    In other words, it helps to consider a different scenario. Imagine you have Ld 10 and are forced to make a pinning test with a -3 modifier. your 2D6 roll sums to an 8 which fails the test.

    You can look at the modifier as adding that value to your roll (i.e. with a -3 modifier you are rolling 2D6 + 3) if it helps to make more sense.

    Also, if you want to use the ruling that you argue that you would have to directly affect Sicarius's Ld to impose a penalty on anyone's test then you also have to accept the fact that (by the same logic) ALL space marines get to use his leadership, this would include your opponents and Space Marines from other codices.

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