Theory : 2nd and 11th, the Missing Legions~

[whiteperegrine]

We all know the story...all records of the second and 11th chapters of space marines have been expunged. There is currently nothing out there that tells us anything about these two chapters at all. Even the alien races make no mention of them, although this really isn't all that surprising in the end.

So the questions remain. Who were they? Why were they deleted? What could these two Legions have done that was so heinous that the Imperium felt the need to delete all records of them? Who had the power to accomplish this feat? What did they have to gain by ensuring all records were deleted of the 2nd and 11th Legions? ...here's what I think could work...

Who were they?
These two Legions were just like all the others out there during the time. When the Horus Heresy occurred they were located on the far fringes of Imperium space and when the "call" came in the raced for Terra but were to late to affect the overall battle.

Why were they deleted?
As we all know, they were deleted after the Horus Heresy which infers that something occurred that caused this to happen. I do not believe they were tainted by Chaos as no other Chaos Legion was deleted. I also do not proscribe to the theory that they were genetically flawed as the Cursed Founding Chapters were not deleted. So, what could these two Legions do that was so bad that the Imperium felt the need to delete all records and never speak of them again?

Well, put simply, I suggest they went Rogue. The death of the Emperor left a vacuum within the Imperium Political Hierarchy. These two Legions did not want to follow any of the suggested "new leaders" of the Imperium as they were not the Emperor. In addition, they did not feel that the Emperor was being venerated correctly for his sacrifice versus Horus and the political factions were now only using his death as a way to climb that political ladder. Due to this, they left the Imperium...why exactly I will cover below.

Who had the power to accomplish this feat?
Immediately after the death of the Emperor there was effectively a 'State of Emergency'. The Space Marines declared Martial Law and Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines was the declared the overall commander until things settled down and the Imperium was able to get back on it's feet. During this short time the 2 Legions have shown up and are not happy campers. They are not pleased to see the political infighting that is occurring over who will take the Emperor's place. They voice their concerns to Guilliman but he basically tells them to not worry about it, unfortunately for Guilliman they continue to do so and do so vocally. Eventually, with the Imperium quickly getting its feet back under itself the two legions see a trend setting up that they do not like as such they inform Guilliman that they are leaving the Imperium and while they are all for defending man they will not become the lackeys of the power hungry political factions within the Imperium who would disguise what they did as "the will of the Emperor".

Now Guilliman is in a bind, does he forbid the 2 Legions from leaving the Imperium effectively starting another civil war? Or should he just let them go with no consequences, knowing that if these two legions leave others may go with them?

Guilliman, being the pragmatic tactician that he was opted for the second choice, with modification of course. He realizes that is he denies their claim the Imperium would be forever ripped apart by a second civil war so he has no choice in letting them go.

So, Guilliman allows the two Legions to leave the Imperium but with stipulations. The biggest being that they have to leave known Imperium Space and not return. The 2 Legions also wanting to avoid a civil war for the exact same reasons, still believe in Man and do not want to fight against their Space Marine brethren...no, what they do not believe in is the Political Factions that are forming within the Imperium Political Structure. Due to this the Legions agree and leave the Imperium after loading up everything on all the ships they can muster.

Shortly after the Legions had left Guilliman had all records deleted while he still held sole control of the Imperium. He had to delete the records for if any other Legions found out, or if word got out that 2 Legions of Space Marines had left the Imperium, others may want to do they same which would result in a Civil War, which as stated earlier Guilliman wanted to avoid to save the Imperium. The reason none of the other Legions questioned this is Guilliman lied to them stating that he was sending the two Legions off on some "Crusade against Chaos" and this was so well told that the other Legions believed him. When the records were deleted the other Legions assumed this was part of some 'grand tactical scheme' that Guilliman was planning out so they did not say a thing.

As far as the rest of the Imperium? They had no clue...the actions of the Space Marines are basically above them and with the end of the Horus Heresy in which the Space Marines saved the day, no one really wanted to say anything against them...although they also did not want to be ruled by them either.

What did Guilliman have to gain by ensuring all records were deleted of the 2nd and 11th Legions?
This part is a bit of a shadow over Guilliman and as such he would like to hide all his parts in this great schism within the Imperium. While he may have actually saved the Imperium by allowing this to happen he also know that should others find out they would want him put on trial for obviously being "tainted by chaos" as only chaos would allow two entire Legions to leave the Imperium. Guilliman, while not really vain, also did not want to go down in history as the man who could not hold the Imperium together.

Another thing that Guilliman wanted to cover up was the bolstering of his own Legion by allowing the 2 Legions to leave. One of the stipulations was that any Space Marines that did not want to leave would be absorbed by the Ultramarines. This in turn made the Ultramarines even larger. Not wanting the other Legions knowing that he did this as they would invariably have wanted some new experienced troops for their own forces especially as nearly everyone was still recovering from the Heresy.~

[DURENDIN]

During this short time the 2 Legions have shown up and are not happy campers.

Just a thought, but the two missing Legions would have started out with the Emperor on Terra at the start of the Great Crusade. The custom was that as the Primarchs were found they were re-united with their Legions.

Perhaps the Primarchs were never found and the Legions simply died out during the Crusade, or perhaps the Primarchs had a change of heart after they were found after the Emperor had ascended?

[Jake]

2 nice and creative ideas. I like them!

[Havoc]

Or a theory from meself was that they beat the Emperor in one of the challenges he usually has when he finds a primarch.

Good theory whiteperegrine havn't thought of that one.

[whiteperegrine]

During this short time the 2 Legions have shown up and are not happy campers.

Just a thought, but the two missing Legions would have started out with the Emperor on Terra at the start of the Great Crusade. The custom was that as the Primarchs were found they were re-united with their Legions.

Perhaps the Primarchs were never found and the Legions simply died out during the Crusade, or perhaps the Primarchs had a change of heart after they were found after the Emperor had ascended?

mind you at work so dont have my books with me but....the legions were created from the seeds of the various primarchs. this info is in either the space marine codex or a chapter approved...cant recall which at the moment.

as far as where they came from....them showing up after the Heresy is just like the Ultramarines (eg). the legions were on the outreaches of the imperium and were unable to get back in time to assist and/or take part.~

[whiteperegrine]

Or a theory from meself was that they beat the Emperor in one of the challenges he usually has when he finds a primarch.

the only difficulty I have with this is why would he have the legions deleted? because he is truely a vain man and cant stand the thought that he lost? so down with the victors? seems that they are depicting him in a "savior" role and this would go in direct conflict with this line of thought...indeed...the savior would forgive....not forget (imo)~

[DURENDIN]

I was under the impression that the Emperor used the genetic material he had left to create the Legions? He didn't start the Great Crusade without any Marines!

Certainly, it's reasonable to assume that the two missing Legions were there at the start, but you can heartily speculate on their fate and the fate of their Primarchs. "Each was placed in command of his Legion" is stated too many times to dismiss.

Ten thousand years is a long time, most people can't remember last week. It's reasonable to go with the idea that two Legions were wiped out in the early stages of the Crusade along with their Primarchs? Since they had yet to achieve much greatness, they were forgotten in the battle for a million worlds?

[Havoc]

Say your the Emperor, ruler of millions of worlds and the most powerful being in the material world(except the void dragon but we are talking pre-heresy here) you just got beaten by one of your creations which is not ment to be as powerful as you, not only does he beat you he has a whole legion of warriors like him who will brag about the Emperor being beaten by his son, so being the vain person you areyou split the legion up and divide it between the ones you have now and delete any information on them.

Crap theory I know but thats it.

[DURENDIN]

If the Emperor said that they didn't exist, then they didn't exist and every trace of them would be purged, it wouldn't be a case of being deleted, that would still be evidence of existence.

[whiteperegrine]

...definately need to check books, been entirely to long but none the less away I go...please forgive if I mash things up horribly as I am playing from memory and its been a good long time.... heh

in one of the books it is stated that all the legions were in existance during the heresy. it was after the heresy that at some point the legions were deleted.

as far as the great crusade...the emporer did indeed have legions made but these were in effect the "first run" on space marine tech. as each was found the new legions were developed using the seed of the various primarchs. this I beileve is referenced in the chapter approved.

time itself does do tricky things but at some point we have to "assume" that the information provided is true unless it is proven otherwise. this is especially true since we are talking about a completely fictional piece of work...as such we have to place face value in the information provided for us. otherwise...nothing ever holds up and leaves everything open to debate....~

[whiteperegrine]

If the Emperor said that they didn't exist, then they didn't exist and every trace of them would be purged, it wouldn't be a case of being deleted, that would still be evidence of existence.

ahhh...but check yer codex. when it shows the listing of the legions it states deleted from records...(or something very similar). as such, we don't have the case of the emporer playing jedi...."these arent the legions your looking for"~

[Liam]

Truth?

Rome had 20 Great Legions, 2 got somehow lost from all Historical Papers, thats the truth.

Theroy?

I've always like that Lion'el Johnson was a Jelous Guy and as a result took out the 2nd found Legion, the 11th however doesn't permit that.

[grismund]

i like vivis plan but i like mine more gw are not nice and dont like us to much and dont want to tell us the fluff thay written

[MC Tic Tac]

Well in the second Horus Heresy book it does mention when Horus was being 'cured' the chaos gods showed him the Cyro tubes on Terra and as he went towards tube 11 he felt all the ungained and missed victories and honours that would never happen.

This leads to that before Horus turned the 11th primarch at least was dead/AWOL/MIA etc. His legion we don't know what happened to them perhaps they joined the Ultramarines (or another legion) as they where so dam big....... or just dispanded.

But at least we know finally that Primarch 11 did not turn to Chaos.


And before any moron says so 2 and 11 are NOT the Grey Knights (they are chapter 666) or Deathwatch (not even a chapter or legion) or the Custodes (more like Legion 0.1)

[Faenor]

In the 2nd book of the Horus Hersey it stated that Horus gazed upon the 11th incumbator. In frustration Horus slammed his fist on it. Right before being sucked into the chaos vortex, Horus heard the being within the incumbator screaming.

As for the 2nd and 11th legions could have possibly been destroyed during the course of the Great Crusade. The Legions aren't invincible. It has been told many times that even the Primarchs found themselves in situations that required help to gain victory. Horus and Guilliman needed the assistance of the Emperor and a sizable force of Custodes in a campaign verse an Ork Waaagh!

[Havoc]

Remember that is a vision, unless the chaos gods can send people back in time, and before anyone says thaey do have this power then answer this...Why didn't they kill the primarchs in their incubation chambers.

[grismund]

im sure we will find out 14 books and all that jazz.

gris

[spruecutter]

Truth?

Rome had 20 Great Legions, 2 got somehow lost from all Historical Papers, thats the truth.

it's 25 and 3 went missing.

[SV_Harlequin]

What about if the 2 Legions became something else. Seeing as the info on them was deleted it would more than likely mean it wasnt because they did something terrible/bad otherwise the info would have be completey erased and no one would know that they they even existed. So it must mean they are/were still around just in another form.

How did the forces like the Custodes/Grey Knights/Death Watch Originally start?

[grismund]

the gray kinghts were a founding orderd by the emporer and done in the normal way the custods have allways exited and the death watch are drawn from all the chapters.

gris