Theory : 2nd and 11th, the Missing Legions~

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

Jonson was the greatest of the primarches, that was said, he also, according to cannon fluff, the Emperor's direct son, and that means he was in fact, a demi-god, now you as Horurs, would you risk a direct confrontation with a demi-god, who is physically, mentally and pyschically stronger than you are? I don't think so.

The primarches as a whole were brothers yes, each had a unique set of talents, but equal no, they were never equal, after all Jonson was made to be the successor of the Emperor, and has the traits that the Emperor has and values as a leader of the Imperium. not just as a leader of Marines.

Admittable the duel against Russ, well that was won by Jonson eventually, but they were near equals in combat, Jonson slightly superior, but the fact was he restrained himself as not to kill a fellow primarch, even when he had the chance did he? No he did not. Horus on the other hand, did, and by some accounts repeatedly, guess which primarch I would have at my side if I was a prmarch?

Horus, not knowing how he survived on his planet I can't say anything, but anything that survived the jungle of Caliban, and thrived there is a very powerful being, more powerful than any primarch, because the impression I am under says that the bests their were the match of many marines, perhaps even a primarch.

It is said that all primarches are equals, well that isn't the case is it, look at their descendents, and how what they have become, if anything only the Dark Angels Salamanders and Space Wolves have any similarities between the pre-Heresy and post Heresy, current time. Ravenguard have changed for sure, after all their primarch stopped his projects, Sanginius died, and left a genetic memory, and now look what happens when that is fired up?

Dorn, look at how his death affected his legion, and the denial of the death of Gulliman by the UM shows abnother weakness there, and a change from their pre-Heresy beliefs, Ferrus Mannus while he understood the value of technology he wasn't as wise as you would think, after all look at how he did not value flesh, and the legions motto "Steel over Flesh" and how the current chapters of his former legion replace their bodies with those of steel, that is not technology, that is being paranoid. Angron, a very angry primarch, with a very serious axe to grind against the Emperor, Magnus, well we all know what happened there, Montarion, he was an idiot, Kruze saw only the worst of all possible futures, how do these traits equal the Dark Angels, or their primarch, Jonson?

Jonson was the greatest because he was the Son of the Emperor, his true successor, not just a primarch.

Horus's strike on the Palace was well planned but he needed a balance of force to be in his favour long enough to stop the Dark Angels and Space Wolves and possibly the second and elventh legions from kicking his chaos-fused-to-his-armour butt out of an airlock and into the Sun. This meant he had to go back and kill the 11 legion before it could be created, after all if your enemy never existed you don't have to fight him right?

For this, think what would have happened if four legions were free, four loyalist legions, each takes a differnt path to Terra, and this would have meant the systematic killing of all of Horuses allies, this would be bad, because I think Horus some how knew Abadon would take over his legion once he died to the Emperor, after all again Time travel if a real bummer to deal with and who knows what else Horus saw as he killed the 11th primarch. Not to mention the continuing campaign against the Emperor and the Imperium, so in fact we have Horus not being as bad as we think he is for the tactical mind, but I doubt Jonson would have such a simple plan in effect, he would have a plan which left him alive.

Finally Horus was right to fear the Space Wolves an Dark Angels, after all the greatest tactical thinkers and the greatest actual fighters of all known Space Marines attacking you, well you'd be screwed.

[Urizen]

If the Lion is supposed to be superior to Horus, then why did Luthor nearly kill him? well mortally wound him? There's no possible way that Luthor was stronger than Horus, no way in hell. Not to discredit your legion, but being a Dark Angel fan, of course you're going to be biased towards them, the same goes for me and the Emperor's Children. Where did you get the stuff about the direct son anyway? I'd like to read that sort of fluff.

[Subzero]

Oh, and the Emperor isn't a god, so El'Jonson wouldn't be a demigod.

[OrkyWisdom]

Y'know, I gotta say, I hate this concept of the Horus Heresy books.

Primarily, they seem to humanize Horus and dumb down the sheer evil bastard he was. He works best as a jealous fuck who started a war, not some tragic Darth Vader figure who was tragically lured astray by the cavorting evils of Chaos.

Secondarily, what is this shit everyone keeps talking about with time travel? A scene with Horus being sent back in time? What the fuck is that? It's not enough now that Horus was some dude who commanded other dudes, but was subordinate to the big dude and wanted the big dude's power. It's not a story about the first mate wantin' the captain's quarters and starting the mutiny, now it's a freakin' Star Wars/Trek ripoff.

Oh, and all this talk thrown around about "Oh, Horus was scared of the other Primarchs!" He fought the Emperor to a standstill. The Emperor. The motherfuckin' "Yeah, nice universe, I think I'll take it" Emperor of motherfuckin' Mankind.

Gah. Revisionist fluff. It's terrible.

[Urizen]

Yes indeed, Horus was the most powerfull of all Primarchs. I like that he was led astray though, thats what chaos does to you. He was jealous of the Emperor and did want some glory, but his duty as a servant of the Imperium over-ruled that. But there was still doubt in his mind and heart(s), so that's what Chaos went for.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

First thing, in the Dark Angel fluff it is said that Jonson embraced his father the Emperor, and his was the most identicle in appearence to the Emperor, try the IA articles that should have some information. Since he was the only primarch to recongise his father and the most physically alike we are looking at more of a true father son relationship than say a, creator servant relationship. Almost the Abadon-Horus relationship if you will, but a whole lot more love, nurturing and respect.

Secondly in the case of Luthor and Horus thete would have been possessed by the Chaos gods and so stronger etc to the level of the Emperor and Jonson. Luthor was also of one of the more powerful marines/enhanced humans left behind on Caliban, so he was almost as good as a primarch to start off with, and when you are almost as good as Jonson, you don't have far to go before you end up as a demi-god/daemon prince.

Well, if the Emperor is not a god, then why oh why where the Chaos Gods so intent on killing him, and Jonson, or possibly the second legion as well, that to me sounds half way between realpolitic and good strategy.

While Horus did fight the Emperor to a stand still I think that was because the Emperor had trouble killing a child of his, and that meant he was limited in technique, until you have tried to fight with only one arm you won't understand what I am saying.

Horus was not led astray through pride, it was jealousy, he would remain the Warmaster while Jonson, one of the last primarchs to be found, from memory, would inherit the throne, Horus felt slighted, worse he felt as first found he should inherit. He became a very angry person and started to plot to take over the Imperium, Chaos was his choice, and he lost. He some how knew he was lost/would loose and so he set up the Chaos marines to be self sufficient, and able to launch the black crusades under Abadon, his clone son. Another thing to clear up, Horus died of wounds, not being killed by the Emperor, the Emperor may have finished him off with a thrust to the primary heart, but he did it with a heavy heart himself, he most likely would have seen it as a Warrior's death, but he couldn't just kill his son, even his 16th son.

Horus was smart, but, since some of you think he was the strongest of them all, why his legion isn't first on the list. The Dark Angels are first for a reason, they are the Emperor's Chosen, who was used as the body guard until their Primarch was found, who legion was so feared by Horus he sent to the opposite side of the galaxy so that when he struck Terra they couldn't help?

While he did sent the Dark Angels and Space Wolves together it was for Jonson and Russ to try and kill each other, and yet Jonson fell into the same position as his father, and that was not being able to kill a primarch, after all which heart did he stab on Russ, the secondary one,not the primary one.

Horus was certainly a very powerful primarch, the order for me is Jonson, Sanginius, Horus, Russ and Guliman for the top five. Please don't react like I am saying Horus was the weakest primarch, he wasn't, but if he was as good as you think he is then why isn't he and his legion in number 1 position?

Finally, the Emperor is a god of sorts, he has to be, otherwise he would just normal sci fi ascended being, which is not the case, it was fairly clear in the descriptions of the finding of the legions in their respective IA articles that the Emperor performed great feats of strength, combat or many other things, and only in one case, Vulkan and the salamander hunt and the reason Vulkan one that was local knowledge, was he actually beaten. He able to match it to all of the primarches that challenged him, but some how Jonson saw a father, why, they shared a similar divine essence if you will. Also since it is fairly clear from the Dak Angel IA article that Jonson and the Emperor share the basic physical features we are looking at a true father son pair, unlike the other primarchs, who only share part of the Emperor's DNA.

PS, just to clear this up I consider all of the primarches to be demi-gods, with the Emperor being their father, sorta like Zeus or Wotan in their respective pantheons, with the others being various aspects of their powers.

[Subzero]

The Emperor wasn't a god. He was an extremely powerful psyker. Hell, he didn't even want to be worshipped as one.

[Tarion'Maseth]

The Emperor wasn't a god. He was an extremely powerful psyker. Hell, he didn't even want to be worshipped as one.

In a universe where gods are presence's in the warp, what's the difference between an extremely powerful psyker and a god?

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

That's very true, after all aren't the Chaos gods very powerful psychic manifestations of a particular facet of humanity?

[Urizen]

Russ bet the Emperor at eating and drinking. Fulrgim, Konrad and others accepted his command as soon as they saw him. Magnus was the first to ever convene with the Emperor. Just because Johnson was 1st doesn't make him the best. And no no no, there's no way in any reality that Luthor was already pretty close to Johnson.

I'm sorry CaptLeonof153rdElysains, but you're starting to sound like a Dark Angels fan boy.

And Johnson knocked Russ out, he didn't stab him, it's a well known fact. He wouldn't have wanted to kill Russ, just put him in his place.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

Know your fluff, after the Siege of Terra was lifted Russ and Jonson had an arguement and Russ said the words to the effect of "If you feel so strongly kill me," and Jonson stabbed Russ in the secondary heart, he had wanted to kill Russ but couldn't. It was once the SW and DA arrived at Terra, at least it was in 3rd Ed.

The fight you are thinking of was about the storming of a castle, Jonson killed the enemy general his way, while Russ tried to get through the front gate. The two foughts over there differences in planning character, Russ thinking if the DA helped his SW he would of have ended it quicker, where as Jonson wanted the SW for his plan because he knew of the back route. The two of them wrestled for a couple of days from memory, and then Russ stopped and laughed, then Jonson knocked him out. The Crimson Fortress I believe.

Actually, from what I could find Russ and the Emperor drew those two, although I can't remember that well, it was a similar situation to Vulkan, although there was no Salamander hunt.

Luthor and Horus were on the same level, and that means they were both possessed to the Daemon Prince almost Chaos God level, so they both were boosted by normal means, in relation to the presence of the primarchs, but also by the Chaos Gods as well.

It doesn't matter what the others did, Jonson was the first to embrace the Emperor as a father, not just simply recognise and accept his commands or challenge him to a competition. Please note what is in italics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Wolves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_An...er_40%2C000%29
While certain parts are in Wikipedia not all of it is, I'll need to get my hands on an online copy of the actually Index Astartes to show you the rest, it is better than nothing, I cant find anything on the Russ/Jonson duel in which he Jonson stabbed Russ.

[Angelofblades]

Alright CaptLeonof153rdElysains, the problem i have with what you're saying is that rather than just be satisfied with having the credot of being the 1st Legion, you gotta take it a step further.

Just because the lion was the first to be found doesnt make him any better than any of the the other Primarchs.

It is even said that Sanguinius was peerless. So how can one say that Johnson was a better fighter than Horus when neither got to fight each other.

No, Horus was a great tactician and understood the need for a blitz strike directly at the heart of the Imperium of Man, mainly he needed to slaughter the Emperor, and show everyone he did it. He needed to break the Imperium with one strike. The Emperor is the tie that binds the entirety of the Imperium, braek this and you win. To do this Horus couldnt afford a drawn out conflict, hence the reason he drew as many supporters as he could, calculating which ones he could draw to his side, and which ones he couldnt.

The fact that he was named Warmaster only helped his cause, because then nobody could question his authority. If Johnson was so beloved, why was he not named Warmaster? It is even said that of the few legions whose conquests came close Johnsons and Russ' were, but they came CLOSE not above and beyond. Meaning even though they are the first born, it did nothing to prove that they were still inferior to the other Legions. Because Horus knew he had to make a quick stike to win, obvious he used the age old tactic, Divide and Conquer. If Johnson was so much like the Emperor, where was his true sight? How could he not see past this ruse? Remember as fluff dictates, both Johnson and Russ were sent on the eastern fringes i believe at the command of Horus.

Even of all the "Inferior" Primarchs, Hell Konrad Curze knew what was about to befall the Imperium, he had envisioned brother fighting brother.

In the case of martial prowess, there were those that put Blood Angels and World Eaters on the same leve, but theres still a difference between martial prowess and brute strength.

Dark Angels are known because they dont back down.

Had the Emperor visited Baal first dont you think Sanguinius would have welcomed his father with open arms too? It is said he had the gift of foresight, he knew the Emperor was coming, he knew of the fate destiny had in store for him, yet he still fought on.

You talk about how anything that could survive the jungles of Caliban would indeed be a powerful being, but then could not the same be said for the toxic ash deserts of Baal? Or how about the miasma death world of Barbarus?

At least there was still foliage, lush jungles and life on Caliban. On Baal there is nothing but irradiated desert, little life, and few drops of water, hell the people live on the moon not the main planet!

You talk about impurities in other legions, but you of all legions have nothing to say.

Ferrus Manus was lost at the drop massacre at Istvaan IV. Had he lived on to teach his legion, maybe they wouldnt be so reclusive. The only reason the Iron Hands set themselves apart is because they feel betrayed by the Raven Gaurd and Salamanders. They feel like their brother legions left them to fend for themselves.

And just how did Dorn's death affect his Legion? It didnt affect them so drastically like the death of Sanguinius. No it made them self conscious of the fact that tho they are here to pay the ultimate sacrifice, that sacrifice has to be worth it. And at least they were there to defend the Imperium at its most direst need.

What about the genetic flaw of the Blood Angels? They wouldnt have it if the Dark Angels would have been there when needed. The Emperor's 1st Legion was nowhere to be seen when the Eternity Gate was being beaten upon. Sanguinius was there defending the palace walls, even fighting against a multitude of Bloodthirsters! Plus he went on to fight in Horus' battlebarge, seperated from the Emperor. Facing Horus alone, even in his weakened state Horus knew he could not match the Angel 1 on 1 in combat, why do you think he resorted to pussyfooting power.

There is even speculation out there, that had not Sanguinius fought Horus prior to the Emperor, the Emperor would not have won. Stating that during Sanguinius bout against Horus, the Angel broke the Warmaster's armor leaving an achilles heel in it.

If anyone's genetic strain is prone to corruption its DA's and we all know why, its happened once, it can happen again. Heresy is nothing compared to a few genetic flaws that make men stronger, or have longer teeth, or go through psychotic episodes. At least those can be rounded up and put to good use.

If DA are so hell bent of capturing the Fallen, why dont they go into the Maelstrom, or voyage into the Eye, hell i give SW props for the 13th company, they went in there, and came back to tell the tale.

What do DA do besides sulk in their little rock, paranoid if someone looks under their skirt.

Your a DA fanboy and thats allright, im a BA fanboy but at least i can show other legions point of views without sounding super biased towards my own legion.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

All I said was that the DA was the Emperor's Chosen and he had a reason for using the Number 1(in order) legion, he chosen the number 1 legion for a reason, and whatever that reason was only he and Jonson knows, he could of had any legion as his body guard, but who did he choose? Firstly the Dark Angels and then the Imperial Fists under Dorn as a Praetorian Guard.

The Lion was one of the last Primarchs to be found, I have never said otherwise, Horus was the first found, but not the greatest but close to it, all that I have said I have felt is just IMHO, nothing much more or less. In a previous post I have said what I felt was the order of the primarchs, Sanginius is pretty high up that list, with Horus and of all things Russ, doesn't that disprove the whole DA fan boy thing, I would hate Russ if I was such a fan boy right, I don't, I simply state my opinions which are based on the idea that there is a whole lot more to this than meets the eye.

Have I at any point denied Horus or any of the other primarchs great powers, from memory I called them all demi-gods, personally as I stand on the issue, Jonson's time on Caliban in the jungles was something else, it changed him somehow from the righteous heir to the empire to a pure soldier/hunter. He was the greatest of the thinkers he saw war as a hunt of sorts, which is what he understood, with Horus coming in second, only reason Horus is the Warmaster is that he was found first (unlike my own so 'favoured' legion, at least according to you).

Yes other primarchs survived lots of other crap, who was dropped onto a detahworld infested with Chaos mutated creatures, and survived for many years alone and wild, well, Sanginius may be without peer in combat, and the others certainly survived very dangerous situations, one even raised by wolves, after all Sanginius did have the appearence of an angel, but i still feel that somehow simply because the Dark Angels are numero uno in terms of the order of the twenty legions that there is something more to them than what we have access to. It could be anything, but last time I checked did the Sons of Horus have an equivalent of the Deathwing or Ravenwing?

Horus may have been the master of the underhanded tactic (thank you to whoever suggested this), but in war and your opponent is a creature that is better than you in most ways you have to out think it, the Lion did this for a long time, he become a part of the forest, I think this in itself made him a better thinker than you would give him credit for.

I simply read into the order of the legions are presented in that there is something more to the Dark Angels, after all look at the current incarnation of the legion, with a cmobined command structure, who even act like a legion in a time of chapters. They know something that the others don't, just like the BA produce better standard marines, even with the curse of the Red Thrist.

And as for Sanginius weakening Horus, I would rather think Horus was boosted by possession the level of the emperor and the Emperor couldn't kill his own son, bring in for punishment, certainly, but not kill. Would you agree that Horus, possessed to the level I am talking about would be able to kill any primarch, even Jonson, but as a standard primarch on primarch duel I would think, Jonson, Russ and Sanginius would draw for first, each of them in their styles equal, Angron second or third, with the others arrayed in some order below.

Yes the Dark Angels have the flaw of pride, but then name someone who doesn't have it, I like the Dark Angels for the similarity to my own rather monastic warrior order type of values, and the fact they are green, but the thing I have with them is a love hate kind of relatioship, because I felt Jonson was the greatest tactical mind of them all, he was too concerned with certain things, don't get me wrong, casaulty minimisation is a good thing, but I think he over valued his own marines, and that is why the Fallen are hunted so, it is like the blackest stain on the honour of the legion as they see it, where as I see it as a disagreement of opinions, that would have happened eventually looking at the evidence of the character of the primarch and Luthor, even if he didn't fight Lion and in a fit of insanity use that spell, whatever it was. Also I felt he was lackign something, perhaps his time in the forest took, away not only his true abilities, but an ability to see things for what they are, not what they seemed, in a forest you don't use your eyes, you use your ears and nose, perhaps if Jonson had spent enough time around Horus he would have heard or smelt something wrong, but he didn't.

Finally, from memory the Emperor did find Bhaal before he found Caliban, and Sanginius did recognise the Emperor and bowed down to him, but not an embrace, while he did have foresight, even things to happen would have been hidden from him, perhaps even his death.

I don't attack your favoured legion and you don't attack mine okay?

PS, Not everything I say needs evidence, Jonson fought with a sword, and if I read this the right way, the sword is a tactical weapon, it can be whatever you need it to be, after all he had a shield and a sword, and when it was needed he fought sword alone. In that you have a primarch whose choice of weapon says he lives and breathes tactics, not just thinks them, and that is the greatest power any primarch could have.

[Gkjester]

Y'know, I gotta say, I hate this concept of the Horus Heresy books.

Primarily, they seem to humanize Horus and dumb down the sheer evil bastard he was. He works best as a jealous f*** who started a war, not some tragic Darth Vader figure who was tragically lured astray by the cavorting evils of Chaos.

Secondarily, what is this shit everyone keeps talking about with time travel? A scene with Horus being sent back in time? What the f*** is that? It's not enough now that Horus was some dude who commanded other dudes, but was subordinate to the big dude and wanted the big dude's power. It's not a story about the first mate wantin' the captain's quarters and starting the mutiny, now it's a freakin' Star Wars/Trek ripoff.

Oh, and all this talk thrown around about "Oh, Horus was scared of the other Primarchs!" He fought the Emperor to a standstill. The Emperor. The motherfuckin' "Yeah, nice universe, I think I'll take it" Emperor of motherfuckin' Mankind.

Gah. Revisionist fluff. It's terrible.

While I agree that it makes a better story, it simply wasn't so, according to Index Astartes 4. Lorgar of the Word Bearers rebelled in this way, and his legion was the first to fully embrace chaos. It was Lorgar who fell because of jealousy and anger toward the Emperor.

According to the fluff that I have read, Horus was manipulated into following the plan laid out by the chaos gods. He thought that he was saving the Empire from the things that he had seen in his visions. In reality, he was bringing on the future that he originally sought to avoid.

Also on the drop site massacre, how many legions were involved, Horus I think was over committed there, and so didn't really have the option of another massacre, and the effect I think of it would have been the loss of his own force, we are dealing with a master tactician here, Jonson would have won.

There are other examples where Primarchs and Legions went up against each other and the legion that was deemed superior did not come out on top. Guilliman of the Ultramarines was able to kill Alpharuis of the Alpha Legion. Despite that, the Alpha Legion was still able to send the Ultramarines running from the conflict. The Ultramarines were overconfident, and that was their downfall. They underestimated their enemy and were severly out-maneuvered as a result.

Guilliman was considered a better general, and he proved himself superior in combat. He couldn't overcome the odds that had been stacked against him. Other legions would have probably fallen completely to the onslaught that the Alpha Legion presented them. Sometimes the better man doesn't win, because he isn't able to think out of the box.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

Not quite what I would have said, but yes, he trained his legion better than Guiliman did and so produced the better marine.

Also I think it is a matter of basic traits here as well, each of the legions followed their primarch, and those primarchs varied massively, Horus and Sanginius for example, but again Horus has the odds stacked in his favour hsowing his prefered use of under handed tactics, which IMHO Jonson would have been used to and so being according better able to deal with, in his duel with Luthor it was more the person he was fighting that hindered him, not the way he was fighting.

[Urizen]

Know your fluff, after the Siege of Terra was lifted Russ and Jonson had an arguement and Russ said the words to the effect of "If you feel so strongly kill me," and Jonson stabbed Russ in the secondary heart, he had wanted to kill Russ but couldn't. It was once the SW and DA arrived at Terra, at least it was in 3rd Ed.

I must get a hold of older fluff then.


Didn't the older story (not the 2nd/3rd ed story, that was weird), have it with the idea that Sanguinius managed to put a very literal chink in Horus' armour before he had the life choked out of him. yes choked, thats why the Blood Angels hate the Talon of Horus so much as it was used to kill their primarch. It is/was a rule.

With such a chink the Emperor was able to defeat Horus, but not before he was mortally wounded by Horus. Also, it used to be the case that there were two Talon's of Horus. Why I can't remember, but I'm sure I've read something on that, and the original art work showed it that way.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

While they may true, the older fluff I think states that Horus suffered many hundreds(possibly, I can barely remember it) of wounds from Sanginius, wearing him down, yet the Emperor had trouble killing a son, and when they fought the Emperor was as I said before, fighting with one arm due to thw way he just could kill his son, and the same for Jonson really.

My primary issue here is that there is more to this than meets the eye, I mean the legions are in that order for a reason, and I think somehow the value of the legions are somehow represented in it. Look at the top five listed legions, did any of them go to Chaos, and that for me, as a loyalist makes them more valueable than the Traitor legions. Which primarch was not slain, but survived what would have been the equivalent of Horus in Luthor?

It is fairly clear that the legions do have a particular value, Horus used them very well to maximise their strengths, but he still couldn't deal with their various other abilities, and in some of them serious cases of psychological issues (my own included, see below), look at the primarchs themselves and what they could do, some only saw the worst possible future, some others had foresight, yet you never see your own death do you? Others had a great pride, that once broken turned to rage for a second, but if it lasted one second more Russ could have died.

Yes the other primarchs did die, by they took lots of people out before hand. And as for the Talon of Horus, I think the Emperor and Horus fought Sword and claw, because it was clear from at least one story, that Abadon ripped the Talon of Horus from it's place on his wrist once Horus was dead. Also I always felt, from the tone of the story Horus killed Sanginius in a very underhanded matter, and that is the primary cause of the Black Rage, not who, but how.

[Subzero]

That's very true, after all aren't the Chaos gods very powerful psychic manifestations of a particular facet of humanity?

The Chaos Gods are the product of emotions in the Warp caused by the souls of creatures in the real world. That's completely different from being a psyker, who simply draws on the power of the Warp.

[Urizen]

Look at the top five listed legions, did any of them go to Chaos, and that for me, as a loyalist makes them more valueable than the Traitor legions.

Legion number 3, Emperor's Children.....is my point made?


Rules for Abaddon in White Dwarf (while the current chaos codex was out I think) had the story going that he ripped it from Horus' body and that Blood Angels hate Abaddon (I can't remember if what that gives them, but they get something from him) as he wields the weapon used to kill their Primarch.

[CaptLeonof153rdElysains]

I stand corrected, thank you, however wasn't there trwachery due to what the Emperor did and how he accepted their worship rather than a failure of loyalty?

Again, as I remember it, but death of Snaginius was very underhanded, and for them to have the weapon that caused that death would be a great thing for them morale wise.