Theory : 2nd and 11th, the Missing Legions~

[Novasry]

I have a feeling that the "Barouge" power armour guy is actually Vulkan, since he just completely disappeared after the drop site massacre.

[GKnight]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet as I dont feel like reading over every post
The Lost Primarchs: Almost nothing is known about the two unknown Lost Primarchs. References to the second and eleventh Primarchs are made in the short story, "The Lightning Tower," in which Rogal Dorn explains that the plinths on which their statues stand in the Imperial Palace should be vacant and says that "no one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?" The Traitor Primarchs' statues in this story are covered with a shroud, so the fate of the second and eleventh is undetermined. They may have been found and a tragedy befell them as the story implies they were spoken about posthumously.

During a conversation between Magnus the Red and Lorgar, it is mentioned that both Horus and Fulgrim upheld an oath taken never to speak again of the two lost brothers.

As for the fates of those Primarchs' Legions, speculation by the Word Bearers on "rumours" of a sudden swell in the Ultramarines' recruitment numbers following the decision to remove the two Primarchs from the Imperial record may indicate that some of the lost Legions' Astartes were integrated into the remaining Space Marine Legions. IMHO this was done so people can make their very own SM legion with whatever fluff they want.

Also fun notes there are 21 Primarchs as Alpharius/Omegon AKA The Last Primarch actually is a pair of identical twin brothers

Almost forgot AKA Edit: In Thousand Sons Magnus makes a small comment about when Russ is sent to kill him this was not the first time Russ was sent to do such a thing..... hint hint possibly Russ was used to kill off the 11th and/or 2nd Legions!

[Lumberjack]

the gray kinghts were a founding orderd by the emporer and done in the normal way the custods have allways exited and the death watch are drawn from all the chapters.

gris

Ordered by the Emperor they are actually same as Deathwatch and members are drawn from other chapters (all explained in new GK codex) but they were sent into the Warp once their leaders were chossen this was between the First and the Second founding (so time would pass differently and they would be at full strengh faster)

Anyway my thought for the missing Chapters is that they actually were the closest to the Emperor that the other Primarchs and became the High Lords of Terra in the power Vacum and as agreed by all they chose to delete themselves from the record books (as they would then have the power to do so). The Legions replaced the heavy losses of the Custodes after the Horus Heresy and the rest were divided into 2nd Founding chapters.

This would explain why the Imperium has gone the way it has, War like focus being the drive of a Marine and the hatred for Psykers is due to their connection to the warp which many Marines believe is why Horus and the other Chapters were influenced by Chaos in the first place.
Thats my belief for it.
-Lumberjack

[Marine Dad]

From the most recent book in the Horus Heresy series, it seems like whatever happened to them happened well before the heresy. At least, based off the memories of the conversation Corvus had when he met the Emperor. (Deliverance Lost, pg 248 (in paperback)

Of course, I'm only half way through the book....so that may change by the end.

I recently read this book and really enjoyed it and thought this piece of info on the missing primarchs was pertinant and "new" This is a quoatation for the book Deliverance lost Pg 247

"Brothers?' Corvus was excited by the prospect, pushing aside the questions that the Emperors answer had prompted. Though he had made many friends amongst the prisoners of Lycaus, always Corvus had been aware of his otherness, & when they had started to call him saviour any hope of normal relations had ended. That there were others like him filled Corvus with hope again.
Yes you have brothers the Emperor said, smiling at his sons delight. Seventeen of them. You are the Primarchs my finest creations.
Seventeen? Corvus answered confused. I remember that I was number nineteen, how can that be so?
The Emperors expression grew bleak, filled with a deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied The other two he said, That is a conversation for another day."

From this, a new fact has come to light (unless I have missed something earlier in this post) We know Horus was found first and we know Alpharius was found last. Therefore Corax was found before Alpharius, ergo at the point in time above, the missing two were already gone/purged, BEFORE the finding of the last Primarch Alpharius & the Heresy that followed later, because the Emperor quotes 17 brothers. That and the line about "a conversation another time" mean this is new info (17 brothers plus missing 2 plus the as yet unfound Alpharius =20)

As an aside is there any info on the order of discovery? other than what I have said above which seems to confirm Corax was not only Primarch of the 19th Legion but was also 19th in order of discovery. I know the Legion numbers are not a guide to this, as the Dark Angels are 1st Legion and the Luna Wolves the 16th, which would refute this as a guide to order of discovery? ......... MD

[Beaviz81]

Wasn't the Primarches just jettisoned for pissing off Horus?

Wobbly Models claim that, and it has been the best of the bad suggestions thus far.

[Dragonknights]

Actually I have been speculating what crime could they have done that even traitors would consider not to speak about them. I looked at the 40,000 and 30,000 chaos marines and imperium. And then I suddenly realize. From all the novels I so far have read both horus heresy and late 40k time line. There is one thing these two factions have in common. From the moment the golden crusade began to the time of ending which we are now.

They both hate xenos and both parties really regulate want to work with them. What if both Primarchs of the missing legions we more tolerant like Tau with aliens? Even going so far to protect the aliens from their fellow comrades in arms because in their eyes the aliens were no threat ever to the imperium but rather beneficial? So they believed that protecting by for example attacking the Luna Wolves to prevent the peaceful aliens from being destroyed. Such an act would still hold enough even for traitors not to speak about them if they still remember them.

[SourImplant]

Now there's an idea that has some merit. And it was actually attempted in the alt-history project The Dornian Heresy.

[Morr]

Actually I have been speculating what crime could they have done that even traitors would consider not to speak about them. I looked at the 40,000 and 30,000 chaos marines and imperium. And then I suddenly realize. From all the novels I so far have read both horus heresy and late 40k time line. There is one thing these two factions have in common. From the moment the golden crusade began to the time of ending which we are now.

They both hate xenos and both parties really regulate want to work with them. What if both Primarchs of the missing legions we more tolerant like Tau with aliens? Even going so far to protect the aliens from their fellow comrades in arms because in their eyes the aliens were no threat ever to the imperium but rather beneficial? So they believed that protecting by for example attacking the Luna Wolves to prevent the peaceful aliens from being destroyed. Such an act would still hold enough even for traitors not to speak about them if they still remember them.

Why would Chaos care enough to not speak of them? Wouldnt they just see them as weak willed emperors lackys? TBH Chaos wouldnt need to not speak of them. Non of the recorded Imperial history would ever consider a heretics words as truthfull. The parallel that both sides of the heresy wouldnt speak of them doesnt hold as the only recorded history (other than the heresy books) is from Imperial perspective or can be argued that it is heretic supposition.

[SourImplant]

Why would Chaos care enough to not speak of them? Wouldnt they just see them as weak willed emperors lackys? TBH Chaos wouldnt need to not speak of them. Non of the recorded Imperial history would ever consider a heretics words as truthfull. The parallel that both sides of the heresy wouldnt speak of them doesnt hold as the only recorded history (other than the heresy books) is from Imperial perspective or can be argued that it is heretic supposition.

If the missing legions had been erased from history after the other 18 legions were split, sure. But the Horus Heresy novels, especially the more recent ones, show that at least one of the missing primarchs was sanctioned by Russ' legion long before the Heresy began. Given a sufficient amount of time, why would the traitors suddenly care about the missing primarchs and their legions?

And this latest turn in the discussion gives me an idea for an interesting army to paint and model. Renegade Deathwatch. Loyalist Marines drafted into the Ordo Xenos finding themselves in an impossible situation, turning to Chaos to drive back some alien menace. But that's neither here nor there.

[DrakonTheNightLord]

I did bring up the theory of mutated Primarchs a few years back (yep, long time ago). Both sides of Primarchs wouldn't talk about Primarch and Legions who dabbled in sorcery and succumbed to warp spawn-esque mutation because:

Loyalists: It is teh heresy
Traitors: Lol, they got mutated into shit, fucking noobs. (They see the first two possibly as weaklings who didn't know better)

Russ was probably sent to execute one of them for being treacherous sorcerous bastards and / or mutants.

[SourImplant]

There's that, but wasn't Sanguinius himself mutated?

[DrakonTheNightLord]

Last time, I made the following point (which got laughed at but here goes another go)

A) Imperium of Man needed... well, Man-looking avatars of greatness that was the Primarchs. They didn't need, I quote my past self, "Primarchs with arms for faces."
B) And Sanguinius wasn't mutated to an extent like Chaos spawns are, so probably that was okay.

[SourImplant]

Stepping outside the Horus Heresy series for a moment, there is a throwaway line in James Swallow's third Blood Angels novel, Red Fury, that seems to back up the idea that at least one of the missing legions was disbanded and its warriors drafted into the other legions.

Spoiler

He smiled coldly. "I advocate the reverse of my honoured cousin's demands. I suggest that we should not tithe our men to Dante, but that he should tithe his to us!"

"We cannot disband a First Founding Chapter!" Orloc was aghast.

"We know the history of the Astartes. It has happened before," insisted Seth.

[daddy4count]

Swollow makes another hint in Nemisis that the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by a Primarch... according to one legend. Another case where one sentence out of hundreds could mean something here.

If one of his sons in the II or XI Legion had started a religion that worshiped the Emperor as a god he may have given them a cease and desist decree, which they ignored... bringing his wrath?

Sad, considering 10,000 years later everybody is doing it...

[Dragonknights]

Swollow makes another hint in Nemisis that the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by a Primarch... according to one legend. Another case where one sentence out of hundreds could mean something here.

If one of his sons in the II or XI Legion had started a religion that worshiped the Emperor as a god he may have given them a cease and desist decree, which they ignored... bringing his wrath?

Sad, considering 10,000 years later everybody is doing it...

Actually there is a text that says that when the imperial cult took root (Worshipping him as a god) the only one whom saw the bitter Irony in it was Logar primarch of the wordbearers. Considering they start the entire heresy because of the emperor is a god issue.

[daddy4count]

... and he was the first heretic...

[xAngelicZZ]

Perhaps, just perhaps the missing primarchs were first to discover the warp as you say, BUT started kicking ass but were destroyed by the gods of chaos this means that:

Imperium won't mention them so as not to dishearten their bretheren, etc etc

AND

Chaos won't mention them because that really ruins their bargaining point it would be like

Chaos god: Join us, reject your fake god and we shall grant you infinite power

Random Battle Brother: Uhmm, didn't you destroy two of our primarchs o.o...

Chaos: Uhh, well.....

[SourImplant]

Spoilers from The Outcast Dead

In The Outcast Dead, villain Babu Dhakal is reavealed to be a Thunder Warrior, precursor to Heresy-era Astartes. Through his tiny portions of the story, it turns out that the Emperor is kind of a dick. The Thunder Warriors were created specifically to die once Terra was unified under the Emperor's rule.

... it would not do for the Emperor to have to share his victory with others. Where is the glory when you conquer a world with an unstoppable army at your back? To begin a legend, you must win that war single-handedly, and there must be no one left alive to contradict your version of events.’

The Babu also suggests that the same fate awaits the Space Marines once their conquest of the galaxy is complete, and they are just too naive to know it yet.

Quite a few times in the Horus Heresy novels -- especially in the earlier books in the series -- the question is asked, what good are warriors when there is no more war? Once the Great Crusade is complete and all the galaxy is unified under the Imperium, would there be any place for the Emperor's sons?

We know for sure by now that the Space Wolves were sent to dispatch at least one errant Legion (which was also mentioned again in The Outcast Dead), but not why. Since the records still exist of the nine Traitor Legions, simply rebelling against the Imperium doesn't seem like enough to have an entire Legion and its primarch deleted from history.

So what if one of the missing primarchs had discovered the true fate of the Thunder Warriors? The Babu himself says that the Thunder Warriors were culled, and any who survived the final battle of Unification were systematically murdered, rewritten in history as martyrs. If a primarch discovered this betrayal -- an actual betrayal above and beyond this whole "Daddy went home and left us out here by ourselves" drama driving Horus' actions -- would it take deleting that primarch and all evidence of his existence from history just to make sure the truth stays buried?

[DrakonTheNightLord]

I went out to buy Deliverance Lost, Horus Rising and A Thousand Sons. Now you made me wish I bought Outcast Dead...

[GKnight]

It is really worth reading all of them Drakon a lot of the first few you need knowledge from the others to get the whole picture. The later books tho have become more stand alone.