Who uses Scouts as their only troop choice? Utility versus squishiness...

[jbarket]

Hey guys,

Now that I've become more accustomed to the game, I spend a lot of time trying to make my army list more efficient. I've been playing in an escalation league, and this past weekend played in a smaller (eg. 1500pt) tournament, and it's really given me a lot to think about.

Most importantly in my decision is that I play Crimson Fists and, unless it's an insanely low point value game, I take Pedro Kantor as my HQ choice.

I've been taking 2 10 man tactical squads with transports. If it's an objective game, I can combat squad them, leave the heavy weapons on an objective and drive the rest around shooting/taking objectives/doing whatever. If it's annihilation, I can leave them together and have one less kill point to give up.

However, I'm starting to see just how insanely more effective 1 additional attack and special ammo makes Sternguard. I always take them since Pedro makes them scoring units, but right now because of how point values break out, I'm taking more tactical troops and only a handful of Sternguard.

I was curious what people thought about slimming troop choices down to only 2 5x Scout squads. They don't really need transports, and the long range of snipers and a heavy bolter gives them the ability to hide out in cover somewhere and help out.

It would slim my troop points down from 400-500pt to probably 175-200pt. That 200-300pt savings can pay for another 10 man Sternguard squad.

That's swapping 20 units (2x 10 man tactical squads) for 15 units (2x 5 man scout squads and a 10 man sternguard squad). Marines already have very few bodies on the board, and good rolls killing a handful of them makes a much bigger difference.

There are three downsides I can see though:

1. They're squishier, so they give up kill points and objectives easier.

2. There are fewer of them, so they give up kill points and objectives easier.

3. I don't own any scout models.

What do you guys think? How do your scouts fare, and how do you fare against people you play who use them?

[Angelofblades]

Scouts are a great choice for a troops unit but not as you premiere tools unit. Part of the good thing about tactical squads is the special weapons access as well as the heavy weapons. After all as BS3 ml doesn't compare to a BS4 ml. If your looking to free up points to get more sterngaurd, may be just a single unit of scouts is needed. I actually wrote a pretty effective 1500 pts Pedro tourney list. You might want to search the Army lists for it and see what you think.

[herplover]

I tried a mostly scout army back in 3rd edition i think it was.It did ok but definately not a replacement for tactical squads

[jbarket]

Thanks for the opinions guys. I'm going to proxy in some scouts with a buddy of mine this weekend and see how it goes.

I hadn't even considered the difference in BS when it came to heavy weapons. That's a huge issue. I mean, being able to take a ML or heavy bolter with only 5 troops is great, but if I'm going to reduce the number of times I hit, it loses a lot of that advantage.

[edmundblack]

For any other army, no, I'd avoid it. For Crimson Fists, it's certainly something to explore. Sternguard are great and can be tailored to fit all roles, but long ranged anti tank will be a problem. So some supporting Dreadnoughts maybe would help, and they'd benefit from the +1A from Kantor too and still be mobile. I would however take multiples, so 2 or 3, and to do so you'd need a Master of the Forge to get them into the Heavy Support slot. He can also improve some terrain for the Scouts to give them a better cover save and sit in the cover too with his Conversion Beamer.

[jbarket]

That's actually more or less what I've been running. Pedro + MOTF with Sternguard in the elite slots and Dreadnoughts in the Heavy Support. It does fairly well and is a lot of fun, but I'm not sure that I'm going to stick with it.

I've been considering running Lysander with a 10 man Sternguard squad. With the ability to reroll misses, and Hellfire shots wounding on a 2+, I think that has some serious possibilities. He also gives them the ability to take out armor in close combat if combi-meltas fail. He'd have the same ability to buff terrain for the Scouts that MOTF does, but it'd mean moving to more traditional Heavy Support options.

A Devestator squad or something similar might help popping armor.

[Angelofblades]

So lysander + Sternguard in a LR/LRR/LRC then? because that's the only way you're going to get lysander across the board, unless you drop pod him with SG.

The MoTF has always been a disappointment to me, both when using it and playing against it.

[jbarket]

That's the idea. Put them in a LR of some sort and drive them around the board. Pop out in rapid fire range, take two Hellfire shots a piece while rerolling to hits. Lysander and the MM on the LR can pop armor if need be. Then back into the LR next turn and drive away. It's a huge point sink for a single unit, but when you're talking about 10 Elites + Independent Character + Magical Transport Tank you can just expect to spend a lot.

MOTF is very hit or miss for me. At lower point values, he has been my MVP several times against horde armies. Conversion Beamer the hell out of them, and his BS keeps it from scattering too much. The biggest problem is that, after one turn of shooting, he becomes the biggest target on the board and they unload on him. No invulnerable save means that he's one heavy weapon shot from death. He's also garbage on boards with a significant amount of terrain. If you can't get LOS from across the board with some regularity, forget about it.

If you can put him somewhere with a good view, far from the action, with a cover save, he can do a lot of damage for a relatively inexpensive HQ choice.

But yeah, he's super inconsistent. Lysander + Sternguard + LCC seems like a more resilient, more versatile and more deadly combination.

[assasin]

use use lysander and sterngurad as assassins put them in a drop pod and land wherever and kill something importent and they are resilent enough to hold there own its great for 1st turn hive tyrant kills and the like

[jbarket]

I had considered that, especially because I already have a nicely painted drop pod that doesn't fit into my 1850 list at the moment. It frees up a significant amount of points that could be put into alternative armor options (or practically another 10 man Sternguard squad). I'm very, very troop heavy, so 215 points of heavy support might find a lot of use.

I'm just not sure about the utility of it though. DPs lose a lot of that steam if they hold everything in reserve and I go first. I also worry about being able to get them across the board. This is the biggest issue I'm struggling with right now. If it's an objective game and they're spread across the board, I drop on one side, cause major damage, then spend a big portion of the game either running and being shot at, or moving slowly and making use of those 30" bolter shots from the Sternguard.

[Kaffis]

As the only drop pod in your list, I'd say reserving everything in response to that would be a terrible tactical choice on your opponent's part. The prospect of trickling on the board when you've got everything deployed after first turn and get to advance all your other stuff to put your kill zone on the board edge... I'd rather take a first turn hit from the Sternguard and have everything else deployed and ready to retaliate.

[jbarket]

Oh, that's completely true. I hadn't even considered that. Plus only running one, I don't have any possibilities of it getting hung up in reserve.

[Thrune]

I have been running two squads of five scouts in my 1800 pt army. One with heavy bolter and one with ML and a couple of snipers in each. I tend to use them to infiltrate onto the board to put pressure on surporting fire units or to draw attention away from more important units. Most people I play tend to panic make a mistake or even better they leave them alone.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I never use scouts, but not because their bad or anything, I just like to run a full Marine Space Marine army. Also I am a elite army player and prefer to have the toughest units I can get and leave the squishies behind.

[Venerable Ironclad]

Personally I love my assult scouts with a landspeeder strom. I will not make a list without them. The ability to out flank, hit the enemy with a heavy flamer, assult and reduce the enemy's leadership by two is almost an automatic stollen objective. Their only real drawback comes in the turn that follows when they are exposed and tend to draw the most fire, however this can draw fire away from your advancing troops.

Also the MotF is my favorite HQ choice, maybe the best range based HQ in the game. I would say that the conversion beamer works best if you give him a bike. My personal experence is that he rarly draws fire, however I also feild on average 5 dreadnoughts which tends to draw the enemys fire.

[thedave]

I would agree, If you want to get more effectivness out of your MoTF put him on a bike, +1T making hip harder to wound and 12" move and still fire will keep him mobile. This wont make him invincable but i have had quite a bit of success with him.