Crucible of Malediction

[Mark99]

How does the Crucible of Malediction affect Grey Knights ? The rule if the DE codex stat that "Every psyker" must past a leadership test or be removed. Would a unit of Grey Knights make one psyche test for the unit or would each individual model in the unit roll separately ? What about vehicles with psychic powers ? Independent Characters with units ?

I would say that each model has to roll separately (a la dangerous terrain) and psychic vehicles are effected, but would like to hear some concurring or dissenting opinions.

Thanks

(I can't wait to unleash this on the Grey Knights this weekend, also have torment launchers for added fun)

[PyroSikTh]

I'm honestly not sure. I don't think it has any affect against Vehicles either way. Against GK squads though, they take a single test for the whole unit, so that might apply here too, except as you point out with Dangerous Terrain tests, it would be a little unfair for a whole unit to be wiped out by one attack.

[Angelofblades]

Every GK is a psyker, however GK's only cast as a choir for their psychic powers (unit basis). Imho, each individual model will have to test separately, and may not even benefit from their Justicar's Ld because it's an LD test, not morale.

I would have to check on the vehicles part.

[edmundblack]

GK Vehicles often have "Psychic Polite" so I think it would unless it specifically says something about not working because of vehicles. For squads of GKs though, I'd say it'd be done on a unit by unit basis due to their "sergeant" acting as a focal point for their psychic power. Unless it states anywhere in the GK Codex (which I don't have yet) that each one counts as a psycher with regards to using psychic powers and force weapon abilities and such, unit by unit wuold be the way forward.

I would suggest that if you're thinking of taking it, make it a regular feature of your lists as otherwise you may get accused of tailoring against specific armies.

[Eldritch]

From what I remember reading a store copy a while back GK get a rule, brotherhood of pyskers, aside from other things has a rule that means in any situation where psykers are targeted only the sergeant get it, or a single random model if the sergeant is dead already.

[Durandal]

From what I remember reading a store copy a while back GK get a rule, brotherhood of pyskers, aside from other things has a rule that means in any situation where psykers are targeted only the sergeant get it, or a single random model if the sergeant is dead already.

Correct. The for things such as perils and wargear that involves psykers, the squad counts as a single one, with the sgt. or random model if no sgt, bearing the consequences.
Psychic Pilot does not make a vehicle a psyker, it merely allows it to cast a psychic power, at Ld 10.

[edmundblack]

Hmm. Off topic here, but I wonder if Psychic Pilot would effect the number of shots a Culexus can put out.

[Durandal]

Hmm. Off topic here, but I wonder if Psychic Pilot would effect the number of shots a Culexus can put out.

No, because they do not have the Psyker special rule.

[Nocturnes]

This may become my favorite toy, if we can work out how it works with the GK.

[SaganGree]

It gets better.... what, if vehicles can be affected, would happen to a squad being transported in said vehicle.... Food for thought.

[Durandal]

It gets better.... what, if vehicles can be affected, would happen to a squad being transported in said vehicle.... Food for thought.

Nothing, because vehicles can't.
They aren't psykers, and only count as Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. The Crucible only affects psykers (which the vehicles aren't) and forces a generic Ld test (which they never take).

[SaganGree]

Nothing, because vehicles can't.
They aren't psykers, and only count as Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. The Crucible only affects psykers (which the vehicles aren't) and forces a generic Ld test (which they never take).

Ok, forgive me as I have yet to really look the dex over... so is the premise that vehicles cannot be psykers? Because I point to BA's Lib Dreds as reference... you know, now that I think on it, how does the crucible affect the BA Lib Dred?

Edit....

To answer my own question:

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

[Durandal]

Ok, forgive me as I have yet to really look the dex over... so is the premise that vehicles cannot be psykers? Because I point to BA's Lib Dreds as reference... you know, now that I think on it, how does the crucible affect the BA Lib Dred?

Edit....

To answer my own question:

Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10.

Then you make a Ld test, and if it fails, the Libbie dred dies.
But the "Psychic Pilot" rule in the Grey Knights codex explicitly states "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" (or to that effect, the only situations listed for having a Ld value to test on are merely for casting a psychic power, and beating a psychic hood), unlike the Libbie you've posted, which is for "all psychic purposes."

[Angelofblades]

After having read the codex, here's what it comes down to:

Crucible Vs Units:

This one is pretty clear, the Crucible will take the Justicar/ Knight of the Flame, if none are present, a Random GK marine in the unit. See 2nd bullet point of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule for ref.

This one is pretty cut and dry, there should really be no argument's here.

Cruscible Vs Vehicles:

RAW: It doesn't affect vehicles

RAI: It does.

Reasoning: The GK book epitomises that GK's are an entire army full of psykers. Their vehicles are piloted by brother marines, who are still psykers. The CoM is DE greatest weapon against psykers. End of story.

Rule interactions in regards to RAI:

These rule interactions are based off existing rule precedents.

The vehicle will take a LD test against the CoM, because by RAI it IS a psyker. If it fails the CoM induced LD test, yank the model off the board. Precedent set by BA Libby. A model that is both a vehicle and psyker.

What if the vehicle is a transport and it is full?

The vehicle along with all embarked units are lost. Precedent set by SW FAQ, see Lukas the Trickster in regards to a straight removal of a model, especially a transport with embarked units.

[Tavitin]

If i'm not mistaken the rule you're adressing is about attacks targeting psykers, and by that only the Justicar/Knight of Flame or a random model is affected when considering units.

The Crucible isn't an attack.

All models are affected.

[Angelofblades]

If i'm not mistaken the rule you're adressing is about attacks targeting psykers, and by that only the Justicar/Knight of Flame or a random model is affected when considering units.

The Crucible isn't an attack.

All models are affected.

Nope, because it also references Perils, which isn't an attack either, it simply is a wound suffered w/out any armor saves and invul saves to be re-rolled.

Also, by extension, any wargear that affects enemy models by removing them from play, wounding them or killing them, is an attack. Precedent set by Doom of Malatai getting FAQ'd.

So no, only the Justicar/ KoF or random model, NOT whole unit. If you want to get a whole unit, get it while it's in a transport.

As for how I play it.

Unfortunately, my gaming group has house ruled it to follow RAI for GK vehicles.

[Baragash]

RAI: It does.

This is one of the weakest RAI arguments I've ever seen. The fact that the wording was made more specific between the Furioso and the GK Codex, written by the same author shows that the case that RAW and RAI are in alignment is much stronger than the case that they aren't.

If anything it shows that the BA FAQ gives a RAW answer and not a RAI one.

[Angelofblades]

This is one of the weakest RAI arguments I've ever seen. The fact that the wording was made more specific between the Furioso and the GK Codex, written by the same author shows that the case that RAW and RAI are in alignment is much stronger than the case that they aren't.

If anything it shows that the BA FAQ gives a RAW answer and not a RAI one.

I don't recall it being worded in the GK codex, only in the BA FAQ. The reason it isn't RAW to me, at least is because it's not written in the same codex, regardless of author. Durandal has already quoted the psychic pilot rule, and is right, as far as RAW goes, hence to me it's more RAI than RAW, and with RAI, it's easier to base your conclusion on past precedents.

[Baragash]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post at all.