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  1. #1
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    Dark Eldar Tactica: How to Stomp Face with the Dark Kin

    I have been going to these forums for some time now, since 2004 I believe. Although I haven't been super involved. When I was a budding 40k player, these were the first forums I went to for advice. I remember reading things that seem obvious now, but to a new player seemed brilliant at the time. I Felt like giving back and taking the time to write a tactica and what better place than the forums that invigorated me to play in the first place.

    For some people the ideas and tactics will seem basic and obvious( mostly the beginning of this article). Later it should become more specific and more for the experience player. With that being said I am one man in one area. You may disagree with some of what I might say, and you are more then entitled to. This is just a guy who loves the game, speaking from over 10 years of experience who has succeeded in a competitive setting. But by no means am I the best player I learn new stuff every game. Thatís the beauty of 40k. So take my advice for what it is. A player with a personal perspective with a decade of experience that really hopes to help even one person better their game.

    This article is NOT for players who take models in their army for looks or "cool" factor. This article is not for the casual player looking to just throw some dice with some friends and have fun. This is not an article for a painter who plays the game just to show off his painting abilities and his "cool" models.

    This article IS for the hungry gamer. The guy who wants to table his opponent take no prisoners and beat face. If youíre the person who feels this game is a match of tactical wits between one general to another then this is for you.

    TLDR: Tactica Starts here.

    This is going to be a DE tactica. Although the beginning may be applicable to other armies keep in mind I am talking about DE here. It will be broken up into several segments, as certain segments some players may not need to read.

    I will begin with part 1 the basics. If you are an experienced player you may want to skip this part.

    5,9,13,17 are your magic numbers when building squads. Unless You need x to get a weapon (example 10 warriors for a splinter cannons). These are usually the best bang for your buck. The reason is leadership tests. If you need to kill 25 percent of a person's army in shooting to make them check their leadership then 12 is a bad number. He will only need to kill 3 guys to make you test. But if you add another guy he needs to kill 4 You have effectively made your unit less susceptible to breaking while being fired at by adding the extra guy. You have effectively increased their chance of not testing by 25 percent.

    DUAL PURPOSE: No unit should do one thing. If each unit can deal with Monstrous creatures, vehicles, and infantry then there is no clear threat to your opponent. Every unit is a threat. This is good for two reasons. One it allows you to handle anything your opponent throws at each unit. Two Your opponent won't have a clear threat. You never want to make target prioritization easy for your opponent.
    Example of dual purpose: 9 Wyches: Hekatrix W/ Agonizer all Wyches have haywire grenades. Now this unit can kill monstrous creatures with the Agonizer. It can destroy vehicles with the haywire grenades. Being Wyches they can handle infantry.

    REDUNDANCY: Almost never take 1 unit of anything. (exceptions being Death Stars, Unique hero's etc.) Redundancy is important for the same reasons Duel purpose units are important. If you have one Ravager as your anti tank that sticks out like a sore thumb, and becomes an obvious target for your opponent. Then if you lose that one ravager it hurts A lot because you have lost a unique Vital piece of your army and battle plan. Now if you have 3 ravagers your opponent says "fuck even if I kill one he still has two more." And if you happen to lose one, no big deal you have more ready to go.

    REDUNDANCY PART 2: If you take 3 raiders and then the rest of the army on foot and some in reserves, this makes target priority easier for your opponent. If you only have 3 vehicles on the table, well he will definitely have enough anti tank for that. Then you have 3 squads on foot well he definitely will have enough anti infantry for that. Now if you drop 6 Venoms 4 raiders 3 ravagers. Chances are he won't have the anti tank to handle all that. Not only that but you renders his anti infantry weapons USLESS. So half his army isn't doing squat. Now If you drop 90 Wyches, 30 Trueborn, 60 hellions, his anti tank becomes silly. Here he is with a predator he spent 100+ points on with Las-cannons shooting at 10 point models. He will never make those points back.

    BANG FOR THE BUCK: You always have to have a purpose for you unit. Each unit should have a role in your army. Let's use incubi as an example. Getting 10 incubi with a Klaivex, Demiklaives, bloodstone, murderous assault, onslaught. is OVERKILL. That unit will OWN whatever it just killed and then the next turn it will get fired at into a million pieces. DE aren't marines. They are a surgical tool 5 incubi will most likely kill the same unit. And if it does die to fire afterwards. It's not a HUGE lose. It also makes the unit less threatening to your opponent and NOT an obvious target next turn. Does he want to waste X number of shots to kill just those 5 incubi or is there something better to shoot at. You always want to make your opponent think and second guess themselves.

    SPREAD THE LOVE: NO unit should be 600 points. We fly around in paper planes of av10 open top nonsense reinforced with cardboard. Then to add to it, we are t3 usually looking at a 5+ up save. You only want to spend the BARE minimum points it takes to make your unit achieve its objective and not a point more. This allows you to present more threats to your opponent. Field more models and vehicles. It makes none of your loses a hugeproblem. And it makes for no obvious target for your opponent so TRIM THAT FAT.

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 16:52.
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  2. #2
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    Part 2 More advanced tactica

    Dark Eldar HATE camp fires: Dark Eldar is not a defensive army. Every list you build you should have the mentality that you're going to table your opponent. You want to get in his face. DO NOT take a unit turn one and sit it on an objective. We are t3 with a terrible save You will lose a fire fight to most armies. Either they will have more bodies to fire back at you. Or they will have the Toughness and better saving throw to outlast you in a gun fight. Do not plop Wracks on an objective turn one and leave them there. Your opponent will just avoid them and shoot at them dwindling them down. Not only that, their doing NOTHING. They can't fire back, they donít have a large threat radius with fleet. Most importantly their not backing up the rest of you army helping out. we are THE fastest army in the whole game. You should be thinking about tabling your opponent and bringing all your firepower raining down on him for 3/4 FULL turns. This helps you get pain tokens, making you deadlier. This allows you to make sure every point you spend is doing something and doing it effectively. When turn 4 comes around you should have most of your army In his objectives. Then whatever is not in combat mount up and ZOOM 24 inches and contest the other objectives.(don't forget the rules of embarking and disembarking be prepared to contest objectives late game)

    Getting the Alpha strike: Deploy your raider turned sideways at the top of the deployment zone (12 inches free movement before the game starts). Turn one you get a free pivot, with raiders being so long. this gives your hull 2 and a half inches over the deployment line making you closer for free. Then After Move up 12. Your guys have a 2 inch disembark, use it. Now fleet d6 then you have a 6 inch charge. With all of that you can have an effective 40.5 inch charge from your board edge (granted you get a 6 on fleet). If you're playing on a standard 4/6 board, the boards only 48 inches long. Meaning you can get 4.5 inches into their deployment zone with a charge on TURN ONE! Even if you roll average on fleet with the free pivot and proper moving. If they deploy on the line you can make it. Wyches with haywire grenades, Hey free tanks hits before it moves(you hit automatically). If its troops you're in combat turn one. If its Nids or orks usually they deploy on the line.( keep in mind trap units that are designed to waste your time. Just because you can alpha strike doesn't mean you Always should.)

    When opponent Reserves his army: (credit to Dash of Pepper) Let's say you get turn one and your opponent decides to reserve his whole army and he is not deep striking or outflanking. Deploy your ravagers and raiders 12 inches. Move them turn one 24 inches. He reserved so he has no turn one. On your turn two move them 12 more inches. make sure you cover his whole board edge(turn your long vehicles sideways). You will have moved 48 inches and have his whole board edge covered. " If you have enough vehicles, you can line their table edge in two turns - at which point non-skimmers are automatically destroyed. While the GW FAQ 1.1 allows players to tank shock onto the board, it also notes that if a unit stops with any part of it off the board, it counts as destroyed. A rhino attempting to ram a skimmer from off the table stops 1" away from the raider to resolve the ramming attack. IE, it has stopped and is still not on the table." If they have a skimmer based army with how long raiders and ravagers are, and since he has to be at least 1 away from your models. This makes it so he HAS to fly over 12 inches to get past your vehicles to fit his on the board. You now made it so he can't shoot or do anything that turn denying him another turn.

    Making pyramids and utilizing terrain: First off demand your 25 percent of terrain DE need it and it is part of the rules in the rule book. If you do have to move your army in the open make sure each model in front is screening the model behind it, providing a cover save.(should look kind of like a slanted pyramid) If your first vehicle moves flat out or has flicker-fields make sure it is in front. Vehicles without flicker-fields stay behind. Put flicker-fields on units you want to be in the front of the pyramid. Save points and donít put them on units that will be screened for the majority of the game. The less points you HAVE to spend on paper planes the better.

    Shaken not Stirred: Most of our long range firepower is dark lance AKA Glorified expensive missile launchers. If you shake a vehicle MOVE ON. we donít have rail guns, Las-cannons or TONS of long range multi melta. Don't get caught up in trying to kill that one vehicle. Just make sure you roll on the chart shake or stun it and move on. You will kill it eventually. 8 Shaken tanks is better than 2 dead ones. You will kill them eventually but you do NOT want them shooting back at you. DE cannot handle taking back fire, Minimizing fire on a mass scale is more important than eliminating one long range threat completely.

    Idle Raiders: When your Wyches/wracks are about to win combat and they probably won't win on your turn. Move a raider next to the combat. The following turn your raider will need to be hit on 6s so if it gets assaulted their not assaulting your Wyches/wracks. If they want to assault your Wyches/wracks they have to walk around the raider. If they want to shoot at your Wyches/wracks they have to shoot down your raider first. If its regular shots they will need a 6 to glance(bolters). If its lascannons they were going to probably target it anyway. SCREEN YOUR CC UNITS. they can't handle a round in the open getting shot up, and they can't afford not getting the charge. Make your opponent work for that kill!( this can be used in a larger way. You can use all your raiders to block LOS or Funnel troops. Control the battle field with your speed and LOS)

    Will be adding more later I'm drawing some blanks right now.

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 17:16.
    Sry about my spelling i have absolutely no typing skills
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  3. #3
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    PART 3 popular unit compositions and why.

    We have a good codex where nearly every unit is viable and can be utilized to some extent: With that being said some units are just inherently better than others. Remember the key is keep it cheep AND Effective. This part Is based off of my experience it isn't gospel but many people agree with it across many forums and it's been tried and true in my personal experiences. I left the units out I personally don’t use. I will add them at a later time, there are more builds out there, these are just the most competitive in my opinion and are a great start off points for new players.

    HQ

    Archon: I feel should be decked out in only 3 ways:
    Layout 1: Agonizer, Shadow Field = 110 Cheap and effective.
    Layout 2: Agonizer, Clone Field, Ghost Plate =110
    Layout3: Husk Blade, Combat Drugs, Shadow field, Soul trap = 145
    Notes: I don’t use combat drugs with Agonizer because some of the roles make it pointless. I want him as cheap as possible half the time with T3 He instantly dies anyway.
    Even if he is was incubi I feel phantasm grenade launcher is too expensive. Assault with wyches first then incubi after. or us them to assault something not in cover. Just be smart They can usually best anything in combat even going second. Leave the court of the archon at home. You can also ad a blaster to your Archon for some anti tank.

    Succubus: I feel only has one layout
    Layout: Agonizer =85 points
    Notes: I take her because she is cheap, don’t take haywire grenades. 5 points for one grenade you will never use leave it at home.

    Haemonculus: I feel you should never take an ancient This HQ should be kept cheep and is mostly around for the pain token and to give a little bonus where he can
    Layout 1: Venom blade, Liquefier gun =65
    Layout 2: Agonizer, Liquefier gun = 80
    Layout 2: Venom blade, Hexrifle = 70
    Notes: The only 2 arcane war gear I find worth taking personally is the Shattershard and the Crucible of malediction. The others are too expensive or too random. Sometimes I will take only a venom blade or only a liquifer gun or nothing at all to keep them extra cheap.

    Elites

    Incubi: I feel has 1 layout
    Layout: 5 Incubi: Klaivex, Venom w/ extra cannon = 190
    Notes: Klaivex I think for the 15 points is worth it with all those extra stats Especially the leadership(but he is not crucial if you need to trim fat). More than 5 is overkill. Drop one to add an Archon if you wish

    Kabalite Trueborn: I feel they have one really good layout which is Amazing
    Layout: 3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Venom w/ Extra Cannon = 146
    Notes: 2 Blasters you're wasting 12 points since you will always be moving that guy has a 12 inch range with his splinter rifle and you never want to be that close. 4 Blasters is overkill Mathematically 3 is perfect to make sure you kill what your targeting remember DE is a precision army. I don’t like 3 with 2 venom cannons because of dual purpose as explained above and the fact that All your troops are anti infantry.

    Troops

    Kabalite Warriors: I feel they have 2 load outs, not really a fan of the 20 man foot squad.
    Layout 1: 5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom w/ Extra cannon = 125
    Layout 2: 10 Warriors, sybarite, Splinter Cannon, Raider = 170
    I personally find that you never want to get you warriors in combat so why spend the points on weapons for the sybarite. I think blast pistols are a waste if your that close you have more problems and it’s a bloody 15 points. You can also add a blaster to the 10 man squad giving them another dark lance in conjunction with the dark lance on the raider.

    Wyches: I feel they have 2 builds, Some people swear by smaller Wych groups and multi assaulting with 2 groups of 6 or 7. I think with proper raider screening Its better to run in groups of 9 or 10. I also think for 10 points razor flails and hydra gauntlets aren't that great especially with drugs contradicting some.
    Layout 1: 9 Wyches, Hekatrix, Agonizer, raider = 180
    Layout 2: 10 Wyches, 2 Shardnet's and Impaler, Hekatrix, Agonizer, raider = 210
    Notes: I'm not really a huge fan of the 10 man but its great at tying up death star units. I personally only run my Wyches with the firs layout. You should almost always give them haywire grenades. I didn't add it because you dont "have" to if you feel you have your bases covered and can keep them away from walkers. But i almost always take haywire grenades with wyches.

    Wracks: I feel have 2 builds
    layout 1: 5 wracks, liquefier, Venom w/ Extra Cannon = 125
    Layout 2: 10 Wracks, 2 Liquefiers, Acothyst, raider = 190
    Notes : I don’t give the Acothyst weapons as he loses his extra attack for having two CC weapons since they would be two different special weapons. I usually throw them at horde or basic infantry so i feel he doesn't need it anyway.

    Fast Attack

    Hellions: I feel have 2 layouts
    layout 1: 9 hellions, Hellarch, Agonizer = 169
    Layout2 13 Hellions, Helliarch, Agonizer, Phantasm Grenade Launcher = 253
    Notes: I personally don’t run these guys but they aren't too shabby Especially since I feel the Baron is our best special character in the codex. The phantasm grenade launcher should be taken in a full hellion army as they need the offensive grenades when going into cover. But i feel the PGL aren't needed on every single unit for 20 points they are expensive. Put them in the bigger assault units and use the smaller units for support.

    Beast Masters: I feel have many, many load outs but my personal favorite is
    Layout: 3 Beast masters, 5 khymera, 4 Razorwing flock = 156
    Notes: Great bubble rap unit, If you take a wound of strength 5 or less put it on the razorwing flock. Over strength 5 on the khymera so they get their invulnerable save and you don’t have flocks getting instantly killed.

    Scourges: I feel they only have 3 layouts
    Layout 1: 5 Scourges no upgrades = 110 Great mobile small group of anti infantry
    Layout 2: 5 scourges 2 Haywire blasters = 130
    Layout 3 5 scourges 2 splinter cannons = 130
    Notes: I don’t like heat lances I feel you have to be too close to use them and the unit becomes a suicide unit(within 9 inches of target for affect) haywire blasters are great for the "shaken not stirred" as stated above.

    ReaversI feel have one layout
    Layout 1: 6 Reavers 2 Heat-lances = 156
    Notes: This unit is great for going after long fangs/devastator squads in the back. It is also great at actually wrecking vehicles. Don't forget your free 6 inch movement in assault phase to get them into cover or out of LOS

    Heavy

    Ravager: I feel has one layout
    layout 1: Ravager 3 dark lances, Flickerfield
    Notes: You really don’t need disintegrator cannons they got nerfed hard compared to last codex and your army already has enough anti infantry ravagers are the best long range anti tank DE can field point per point. Flickerfield I feel is a must as this will be out in the open a lot and won't be moving over 12.

    Talos: I feel the Talos has only one layout( although I have seen some with haywire blasters which is not bad)
    Layout: Talos, chain flails = 110
    Notes: great as soaking up for. Amazing in cc just an all around beast. Twin linked splinter cannons just really tears into troops as he advances. It has also been brought to my attention that in a portal list a heat lance would be a great addition as range is not as much of a factor. But i would leave the heat lances at home if not coming out of a portal.

    Razorwing jetfighter: I feel has one load out I'm not a huge fan of this but it is nice to throw down so long range pie plates and it is our only 48 inch range weapons we can field
    Layout 1: On this guy take either disintegrator cannons or dark lances depending on what you need and I leave the missiles stock with 4 monoscythe missiles I don’t feel the other are worth their points.

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 21:17.
    Sry about my spelling i have absolutely no typing skills
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  4. #4
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    Part 4 some Math

    (credit to ketara for first math part)
    So. The Kabal Army List. As mentioned, you want as many guns as you can cram in whilst still maintaining a combat edge. The trick is to capitalise on points to guns cost for maximum efficiency. So presuming you want Dark Lances, points for guns wise, these are the best units in ascending preference.

    1. Ravager. 105 points for a ravager with 3 Dark Lances = 35 points per Dark Lance
    2. Trueborn. 86 points for 3 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances = 43 points per Dark Lance
    3. Raider. 60 points per Raider with 1 Dark Lance = 60 points per Dark Lance
    4. Scourges. 140 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Dark lances = 70 points per Dark Lance
    5. Razorwing. 145 points for 2 Dark Lances = 72.5 points per Dark Lance
    6. Warriors. 115 points for 10 Warriors with 1 Dark Lance = 115 points per Dark Lance

    As can be seen, The Ravager is clearly the optimum platform with which to mount Dark Lances in terms of points efficiency.

    To do the same again for Splinter Cannons.

    1. Trueborn. 56 points for 3 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons = 28 points per Splinter Cannon
    2. Venom. 65 points for a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons = 32.5 points per Splinter Cannon
    3. Scourges. 130 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Splinter Cannons = 65 points per Splinter Cannon
    4. Warriors. 100 points for 10 Warriors for 1 Splinter Cannon = 100 points per Splinter Cannon.

    Using the figures outlined above, Trueborn shine once again. As can be evidently seen, Trueborn are the choice to make when examining optimum fire output. However, Venoms fall only ever so slightly behind them in points cost, and being a transport and vehicle to boot, are infinitely hardier, making them clearly preferable when looking to take the maximum number of splinter cannons.

    For Blasters and Heat Lances (grouped together as they have similar intention -to tank bust- and range).

    1. Trueborn. 108 points for 4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters = 27 points per Blaster
    2. Warriors. 60 points for 5 Warriors with 1 Blaster = 60 points per Blaster
    3. Scourges. 134 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances = 67 points per Heat Lance
    4. Scourges. 140 points for 5 Scourges with 2 Blasters = 70 points per Blaster
    5. Reavers. 78 points for 3 Reavers with 1 Heat Lance = 78 points per Heat Lance
    6. Reavers. 81 points for 3 Reavers with 1 Heat Lance = 81 points per Blaster
    7. Talos. 115 points for Talos with Twin Linked Heat Lance = 115 points per Heat Lance

    As ever, the Trueborn top the charts. It quickly becomes apparent why 3 units of Trueborn are the obvious choice for any competitive Kabal List. Yet Warriors, despite falling near the bottom in the other two weapon for points comparisons, strike near the top in this one, clearly indicating their optimum use and configuration.

    Whilst the simple displays I have laid out above do not account for other capabilities of the units in question, like transport capacity, objective holding, shardcarbines, and so on, the trick is to try and get the most bang for your buck whilst retaining maximum usefulness. By gauging the best way to put guns on the table, you can construct your army around that in the best possible fashion.

    More math
    Against AV 12-14

    the 2x void lances average .167 glances and .5 penetrating hits.
    The 3x Dark lances average .25 glances and .5 penetrating hits.


    Against AV 11

    VL: .167 Glancing, .667 Penetrating
    DL: .25 Glancing, .75 penetrating


    Against AV 10

    VL: .167 glancing, .833 Penetrating
    DL: .25 Glancing, 1 penetrating


    The Dark Lances win, but only by a few glances against AV12-14, For the rest the Dark Lances win by more

    Against Av 12 through 14
    2 Void Lances = 2*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(1/2)(1/2)) = .3703% chance of getting a desired result

    3 Dark Lances = 3*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(1/3)(1/2)) = .3888 % chance of getting a desired result

    Av 11
    2 Void Lances = 2*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(2/3)(1/2)) = .4814% chance of getting a desired result

    3 Dark Lances = 3*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(1/2)(1/2)) = .5555 % chance of getting a desired result

    Av 10
    2 Void Lances = 2*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(5/6)(1/2)) = .5926% chance of getting a desired result

    3 Dark Lances = 3*(2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(2/3)(1/2)) = .7222 % chance of getting a desired result

    Setup is (Number of Shots)*(Chance to hit)*((Chance to Glance)*(Chance to do something)+(Chance to penetrate)*(Chance to do something))

    Sry about my spelling i have absolutely no typing skills
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  5. #5
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    I will be editing this and Adding too it and hopefully making it better for the DE community on this board as always any advice would be appreciated and i will add to the tactica. I will be spell checking it more as well. And making things bold and in different colors to make it easier to read. Please feel free to PM me if you want something added i will give you credit. Hopefully with us all working together we can make this a very in depth and best tactica here

    Woosh took me like 4 hours.

    Thank you Pyrosikth and yWizePapaSmurfy for your contributions i have gone back and edited some things as per recommendation.

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 17:19.
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  6. #6
    Come On, Brofist yWizePapaSmurfy's Avatar
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    Don't like math (because really, it's a game of dice and tactics, and I know whiners about "my dice didn't meet the math" etc) but rest of it is pretty sound, though the point about dual use and recommending Ravagers is contradictory

    Personal Thoughts:

    The whole bit of "Points per Dark Lance/Splinter Cannon" is a old DE book thing Dash and older DE players fall into. Reality hides it in there that don't fall for this, but really, it's paramount.

    Don't let it fool you, Like Reality says here, they are basically ap 2 Missile Launchers that equalize vs. AV 12+ So, why take other forms of anti-tank?

    Reliability - You need a tank dead, try to get some AP 1 in the list. This is the number one reason why Marine and IG armies are so high up on the competitive grid these days. Outside Tau, Xenos armies have very little ways to get past the new and harsh vehicle damage table. Luckily DE have the assets to do so in the form of Heat Lances, only found on a few things mind you, but you should only need 1/2 units with the AP 1 anyways - To ensure a LRC carrying a doom unit is halted down to foot speed while DE speed maintains superiority.

    Don't fall for the points/per system, it limits your vision of your unit's capabilities to just being a gun platform when...different uses can be seen: Example - times can call for a portion of your skimmer fleet needs to stall midfield gaining, speed up and literally block movement. Can't say how many times sacrificing the 3 Raiders in my list have kept the enemy hemm'd in while I do as my please back behind them because I blocked movement for the first turns of a game and kept the enemy from moving into midfield.

    2. DE as a Defensive army - It's not reccomended nor ignored in a DE list, as Beastpacks are great to tell the enemy you want to play your ranged game, it cannot be ignored as a tactic to use in the middle of battle. Remember your speed is not one tool but many and a key to one's success as a DE player. Know your fragile, know the way to live is to choose where you can succeed, and plan accordingly.

    Regarding Heat Lance effectiveness: It's actually great compared to other armies having to get in dead zone of 6 or even 3", coupled with knowledge that the unit IS usually put into the death bill, I think it's worth it stopping that key tank ASAP like I said before.

    Reavers...ignored? Probably never have even tried 'em?

    3. Predict more - You cannot mount a vehicle and Flat Out same phase, so to do the contesting thing your transport is going solo unless you are re-mounting the turn beforehand.

    Alpha strike is a farce against any veteran general. If there's no way to hide from the tactic, the enemy leaves the bubblewrap unit of choice or unit for you to eat and promptly eats the cat that took the mouse, lol. Don't bank on a assault Alpha Strike, ever. People know better and a 1 for 1 trade is almost never Dark Eldar'y.

    Blocking the edge: Been around ages, people should know better by now. If not, i'd love to see a DE list with enough vehicles to block a entire edge and see the look on the dumbfounded guy's face, lol.

    Succubus Haywire Grenade: Nigh a must, IMO. Should a Walker sneak by your lines somehow and get into combat with your Succubus, she's screwed without the Grenade.

    Good points about wrapping CC units with Skimmers but apply it on a more wider scale by using your masses of skimmers to cordon sections of the battlefield, allowing everything to contribute to the firepower, while the skimmers block access/LoS and have a field day.

    Whew, jus a few things

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    For once I agree with pretty much everything you said (bar the math stuff, I didn't even bother reading that load of bull ). I even learnt a couple of things. However I feel some things need to be added, particularly to unit loadouts.

    Archon - I prefer the Agoniser/Shadowfield loadout best, but I always add in a Blaster. That's still only 135pts, but he can threaten anything and everything. He's an absolute machine with whoever you have him join.

    Warriors - I take the 10-man squads, but I add in a Blaster for anti-tank (tying in with your Dual-Purpose mythology) and a Venom Blade on the Sybarite. Reason for the Venom Blade is because, even though you don't want to be in combat, they will get assaulted and die. That's just a fact of the game. For 5 measly points, however, you actually stand a chance to take something with you. I've taken down Tyranid Warriors thanks to that Venom Blade. I never leave without it.

    I'd personally say Incubi are the best at around 7 per squad, and I don't think the Klaivex is ever worth it. The only reason you'd take an expensive Klaivex is for the expensive goodies he brings...which aren't really worth it anyway. 7 per squad means you can take a few casualties and still cause the carnage you need. Of course that changes depending on the size of game you're playing.

    As you missed them out, I'll add in the Reavers entry;

    Reavers - 1 loadout
    6 Reavers w/2 Heat Lances. They fit the perfect duality role. They require a bit of finesse to use, but they're our best way to get AP1 Meltas, and that is what KILLS vehicles. If there's no vehicles around, you can just bladevane some infantry nearby. These guys rely on their cover saves however, so you always need to turbo-boost or use your free 6" assault move to get into cover after you've shot. It's also a handy idea to give them a Pain Token early on via Haemonculus shenanigans, but I never do, because I prefer my Haemonculi with Furious Charge Wracks

    Slight typo, I think, on your Beastmasters. The max Khymerae you can have per Beastmaster is 5, so that 6th Khymerae would require a 4th Beastmaster to unlock. I'm sure you just typed the wrong number in there though

    I'd say the Talos loadout needs the Heat Lance. Again it's one of our only sources of AP1 Melta, and if you're taking a Talos, you're running him in a portal anyway, so the range isn't a problem.

    You also missed out the Voidraven, so I'll do that one too;

    Voidraven; 2 loadouts;
    Voidraven w/Flicker Field - Probably the best loadout. You don't really need anything else. It's the toughest vehicle in the whole codex and can move 36" Flat-Out. It also comes with the highest strength weaponry in the entire codex. A worthy, albeit more expensive substitute for a Ravager in my opinion. I'm just waiting for the actual model.
    Voidraven w/2 Necrotoxin Missiles and Flicker Field - This loadout is probably the least efficient, as you're looking at almost 200pts in one, still fairly weak vehicle, but it adds some anti-infantry for that dual-purpose you were talking about earlier.

    If the above post comes off with a negative tone, you're reading it wrong.
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  8. #8
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    To yWizePapaSmurfy I dont feel i contradicted myself with the ravager because redundancy can override and coincide with duel purpose.

    I disagree with NEEDING ap1 I think if you bring enough anti tank period as long as your shaking the vehicles you will eventually clean up.

    Mostly everything else you said i added in with () at the end of what i wrote to add your knowledge to it.

    the succubus i dont give haywire grendes because usually shes running with wyches who have them. and 5 points is kinda steep for just another one

    to Pyro I think void ravens are the worst heavy in the codex for what it does.

    But i will be adding you exact reaver layout as thats great and even though i personally dont use them they have shown promise. (i still feel their a suicide unit that never makes back their points)

    as for the beast master typo i have 3 beast masters i should be able to take 15 khymera.

    I did the math on the incubi. Those extra two bodies dont really get much return. Although you have a point they will weather shots with more bodies with proper raider placement and with how small a threat 5 are no matter what happens to them i dont feel is a problem.

    Edit upon further review i added more of your guys stuff thanks again <3

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 17:36.
    Sry about my spelling i have absolutely no typing skills
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  9. #9
    MalkThe2nd's Avatar
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    While you wouldn't want to just plop them nowhere and call it a day, I feel foot Wracks have some good uses for being so cheap.

    Bubblewrap for scouts and board blocking for outflanks or wolf scouts is always handy to have for a shooty force.

    Give them enough bodies and a VB and they become a viable CC threat that eats up weakened squads.



    While there are many optimal set-ups for X unit, you can't always apply that to a particular list. Sometimes skimping on pts in one place actives choices you couldn't normally take.


    Overall though I like it, lots of good stuff for a budding player.

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  10. #10
    PyroSikTh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShadowsOfReality View Post
    as for the beast master typo i have 3 beast masters i should be able to take 15 khymera.
    One Beastmaster can't control more than one type of beast. Those 3 can have 3x5 Khymerae, 3x2 Razorwing Flocks or 3x1 Clawed Fiends...or a combination. You can't have, as per your example, 1 Beastmaster with 5 Khymerae, 1 Beastmaster with 2 Razorwing Flocks, and 1 Beastmasters with 1 Khymerae and 2 Razorwing Flocks.

    Originally Posted by ShadowsOfReality View Post
    I did the math on the incubi. Those extra two bodies dont really get much return. Although you have a point they will weather shots with more bodies with proper raider placement and with how small a threat 5 are no matter what happens to them i dont feel is a problem.
    It's not something math can accommodate. You're seriously going to have to stop mathhammering ideas to see whether they're good or not, because the game just doesn't work out like that. You say 5 are enough to take on anything? Sure, I agree, but 7 is better as you can lose 2 Incubi and still get the attacks of the original 5. Also, 5 aren't much of a threat? Are your opponents not all there or something? Where I am, and everyone I speak to on the internet on these things, 5 Incubi are still feared and will suck up a large portion of the opponents firepower.

    If the above post comes off with a negative tone, you're reading it wrong.
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  11. #11
    Tavitin's Avatar
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    Hellions have zero grenades, the Helliach NEED the PGL.
    Being a mobile assaulting force, they NEED to be able to punch faces anywhere, everywhere.

    PGL because you need them assaulting stuff in cover (like long-fangs, Lootas, etc)

    Good post Shadows

    http://i.imgur.com/THuHj.jpg

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  12. #12
    Tavitin's Avatar
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    Also, the units composition part is for GENERAL lists.

    You can put examples of SPECIFIC lists. Those are lists constructed around units.

    There are lists construced around two units of 9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Champion with VB.

    There are lists contructued around two units of 7 Mandrakes with Nightfiend.

    There are lists constructed around two powerhouse 9-man Incubi units.

    Its good to learn how to make those 'non-optimal' size of units fit into an competitive list, thus making their unusuality a 'pro' factor rather than a 'con' factor.

    For example, two units of 9 Incubi with Klaivex and Onslaught riding Raiders. Anything they'll face will go *poof* in no time, so you are (actually) placing a huge bullseye on those power-weapon wielders on purpose so the rest of your army won't get priorized. If your oponent won't priorize the Incubi make his terminators/genestealers/whatever into a bloody pulp to remember why porn-elves like raping xenos for the lols.

    EDIT1:
    Take a look of what i think its a competitive list built around a non-optimized unit:

    HQ (total 3 models)
    Baron Sathonix
    2 Haemonculus - 2 Liquifiers, Shattershard, Crucible
    well, the Baron is the Stealth enabler and a +1 to go first, tagging along the Beasts for starters. The Haemonculi give their PT to the Reavers and then embark into a TGL Raider for further usage of its weapons.

    Troops (total 5 units // 5 vehicles)
    7 Warriors - Blaster // Raider, Flickerfields, Torment Grenade Launchers (x3)
    5 Warriors - Blaster // Venom, extra Splinter Cannon (x2)
    Simple Kabal setup, filled with dual purpose and using the magic numbers. Torment Grenade Launchers for crucible slappage. Good number of troops for objectives, bad for Killpoints though. Since the Reavers are more likely to be focus-fired this units already benefit from extra survivability.

    Heavy (total 3 vehicles)
    Ravager
    Ravager
    Ravager
    Screened by terrain and raiders, standard for every 2k list in need of Darklight weapons.

    Fast (total 3 units)
    9 Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion, Venom Blade (x2)
    4 Beastmasters - 9 Khymerae, 4 Razorwings

    The stars of the show! Need anti-infantry? Razorwings and Bladevanes. Need anti-tank? Razorwings and fast Meltas. Need cover? Khymerae, Baron and Turbo-Boost. Your whole army is designed to let these buggers win the game for you, if your oponent won't let them, the rest of the army can do it too with clever positioning and exagerated baiting.


    Last edited by Tavitin; 6th April 2011 at 19:38.
    http://i.imgur.com/THuHj.jpg

    "There are three sorts of comedian in the world: satirists who laugh at the powerful, bullies who laugh at the weak and Harlequins who laugh at your bloodsplattered corpse."

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  13. #13

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    Originally Posted by ShadowsOfReality View Post
    To yWizePapaSmurfy I dont feel i contradicted myself with the ravager because redundancy can override and coincide with duel purpose.

    I disagree with NEEDING ap1 I think if you bring enough anti tank period as long as your shaking the vehicles you will eventually clean up.

    Mostly everything else you said i added in with () at the end of what i wrote to add your knowledge to it.

    the succubus i dont give haywire grendes because usually shes running with wyches who have them. and 5 points is kinda steep for just another one

    to Pyro I think void ravens are the worst heavy in the codex for what it does.

    But i will be adding you exact reaver layout as thats great and even though i personally dont use them they have shown promise. (i still feel their a suicide unit that never makes back their points)

    as for the beast master typo i have 3 beast masters i should be able to take 15 khymera.

    I did the math on the incubi. Those extra two bodies dont really get much return. Although you have a point they will weather shots with more bodies with proper raider placement and with how small a threat 5 are no matter what happens to them i dont feel is a problem.

    Edit upon further review i added more of your guys stuff thanks again <3
    Except that you have 4 razorwing flocks, one beastmaster can only select one type of beast to go with it, he can't take multiple types of beasts with him.

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  14. #14
    ShadowsOfReality's Avatar
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    Thanks you i updated the beast master section, I apologize i never fielded them but i knew that was a popular load out. My personal army is completely mechanized. Thank you for correcting me.

    Pyro I just feel like 7 Incubi is too many points for what it accomplishes. Yes 5 Incubi are a target but 7 are an even bigger one. I just haven't seen anyone take more then 5 and it pay off. I feel its too much of a diminishing return and makes it too much of a huge target. I respect your opinion i just really disagree.

    Tavitan: I'm adding in the PGL to the hellions. I cant believe they dont have plasma grenades thats pretty damn lame.

    Edit keep it coming guys great ideas i really appreciate it.

    Last edited by ShadowsOfReality; 6th April 2011 at 21:17.
    Sry about my spelling i have absolutely no typing skills
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  15. #15
    PyroSikTh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShadowsOfReality View Post
    Pyro I just feel like 7 Incubi is too many points for what it accomplishes. Yes 5 Incubi are a target but 7 are an even bigger one. I just haven't seen anyone take more then 5 and it pay off. I feel its too much of a diminishing return and makes it too much of a huge target. I respect your opinion i just really disagree.
    In a larger game (talking 1,500-2,000), 5 Incubi just aren't enough. They'll get shot up before they get there (unless you're lucky, or your opponent doesn't know what he's doing) leaving you with not enough Incubi left to get the job done. 7 is the magic number. It's not as many wasted points as 9 or 10, but it gives you enough bodies to survive some blows and still do the damage you need. Not only that, but when it comes to Incubi, you can't really be overkill. They need that initial Pain Token straight away, unless they're just a throwaway unit of course, in which case why have 5? Why not save points and just get 3?

    If the above post comes off with a negative tone, you're reading it wrong.
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  16. #16
    Tavitin's Avatar
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    one more thing about the Helliarch: he can get Venom Blade for no cost. if you're paying for him and not giving him an Agoniser, the Venom Blade is the poor-mans choice

    http://i.imgur.com/THuHj.jpg

    "There are three sorts of comedian in the world: satirists who laugh at the powerful, bullies who laugh at the weak and Harlequins who laugh at your bloodsplattered corpse."

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  17. #17

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    Originally Posted by PyroSikTh View Post
    In a larger game (talking 1,500-2,000), 5 Incubi just aren't enough. They'll get shot up before they get there (unless you're lucky, or your opponent doesn't know what he's doing) leaving you with not enough Incubi left to get the job done. 7 is the magic number. It's not as many wasted points as 9 or 10, but it gives you enough bodies to survive some blows and still do the damage you need. Not only that, but when it comes to Incubi, you can't really be overkill. They need that initial Pain Token straight away, unless they're just a throwaway unit of course, in which case why have 5? Why not save points and just get 3?
    I have to agree, 5 Incubi's just gonna get shot down. After a player have experienced once what the incubis can do, they are gonna target them from the start. It gives you a tactical advantage yes, but if you want them to survive to actually do some damage you need to put more than 5 in the group. I usualy go for 7.

    I have had 5 in the group a few matches but they dont really get to do much. And I feel that you NEED a Heamonculi in the group from the start aswell.

    Reavers are also bloody brilliant tbh. They can change a game totaly. They might not give theyr points back in killing at times, but I bet you that you will take out more points because of them. People out there know what they can do if they get to do theyr thing.

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  18. #18
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    um, pyro, reavers have 2 builds, lances and caltrops and yes, cal's are expensive but there the only thing i take against non-mech armies

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  19. #19
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    There is always the WWP option, i never used it much in the old Dex, but ive been giving it a good working out lately

    Try this 5 incubi & 5 bloodbrides in venoms with whatever builds you like

    then you seperate the squads from their transports, deploy the venoms and leave the incubi and brides in the web way, usually with your archon.

    Then depending on what combat drug you roll you have the option of adding your archon to either unit before rolling for reserves. Gives you just a bit more tactical flexability.

    this also leaves your 2 venoms to fly around providing some good long range fire support

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  20. #20

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    I'm not sure why you completely disregarded the Cronos Pain Engine. I Also feel that ravagers can still benefit from nightshields. Which is as controversial for people with wyches and haywire grenades.

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