Chaos - Legions and Renegades

[PyroSikTh]

Rumours are starting to crop up, so it's probably about time we start collating them.

So far rumours from Warseer and Dakka have suggest a release near/alongside 6th Edition which should be coming Summer 2012. Further word is that they'll be split into two books - Chaos Renegades and Chaos Legions.

Warseer (via BoLS) has got a little more;

...the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names

there "may" be a inquisitor who's gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one. its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....

..."Chaos Legions as an uber-elite army, probably comparable to Grey Knights in that regard?" - YES

"and a second book that deals with Chaos Renegades, that includes Chaos Guard, or might even focus on non-marine chaos?" - YES

...little horus?.... you could be onto something

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Got some SM and CSM stuff, juust gotta decide on how to run and build them...But this may tide me over to wait past the Necron tide.

[edmundblack]

If (note: IF) this happens, I'll certainly be taking an interested read in it. (of course, no doubt we'll see some Space Knight Blood-cron Wolf-Eater Angel armies from BOLS, but that's what they're like)

[daddy4count]

Looking forward to seeing a Legions codex... rumor was that the existing CSM book would be FAQ'd and Errata'd to be the new Renegades book. How cool would it be to see two new books released instead?!?!

[PyroSikTh]

I think the current thought is that the present CSM book will be WD'd until the 'Chaos Renegades' book hits a couple of years later.

[mephiston_2k]

Chaos Legions I'd sure like to see, esp for the likes of the Black Legion, Night Lords and Death Guard for me personally.

[Architech]

I'd be a bit sad to see NL just because I have plans for an NL army based on another codex. But it will probably be good to have a proper legion listing. I would really hate for it to be half assed optional out of a WD, though...

[Baragash]

Colour me not excited until I see the 6th Ed rules. Effectively adding another Marine army.... whoop-di-doo.

[experiment 626]

July will almost certainly be when the 6th ed rulebook hits, so perhaps June or August for Legions then?

I kinda expect the legions book to be similar in approch to the other marine books; take 'X' character to get 'Y' unit as troops?! Maybe even throw in a similar rule from daemons that the named characters can only join a unit from their legion? (so no Kharn leading plague marines or 1ksons anymore!)

I really hope to see Honsu become a named Iron Warrior character - best BL villan ever!!!

[PyroSikTh]

Colour me not excited until I see the 6th Ed rules. Effectively adding another Marine army.... whoop-di-doo.

Kind of, but not really. If Chaos Renegades does have Traitor Guard in it, I can see it being more a combined arms army. You have the elite Chaos Marines with their Mutant and Cultist fodder. I wouldn't really call that a Marine army.

[edmundblack]

No matter what they do with Chaos: Legions, they'll get complained at as it'll either be "too good" or "not good enough", "not proper Legions" or "not proper lost and the damned" etc etc. Only trouble is that I can see, is that if they did Legions how folks would want them, and LatD as folk would want them, both would be good enough to stand on their own. Combine them to a certain degree, and you open the way for ludicrous auto-combo-win creations that suck the fun out of the game for anyone who doesn't use that Codex.

And Necrons aren't even out yet and people are speculation on what's next.

[PyroSikTh]

No matter what they do with Chaos: Legions, they'll get complained at as it'll either be "too good" or "not good enough", "not proper Legions" or "not proper lost and the damned" etc etc. Only trouble is that I can see, is that if they did Legions how folks would want them, and LatD as folk would want them, both would be good enough to stand on their own. Combine them to a certain degree, and you open the way for ludicrous auto-combo-win creations that suck the fun out of the game for anyone who doesn't use that Codex.

And Necrons aren't even out yet and people are speculation on what's next.

I don't think the LatD elements will be in Legions. They'll be in Renegades.

[Baragash]

that suck the fun out of the game for anyone who doesn't use that Codex.

Let me introduce you to 5th Edition... which has been increasing the number of such rules in the game anyway as part of it's how-many-rules-can-we-needlessly-stuff-into-the-game-and-turn-the-whole-thing-into-a-ridiculous-mess design theory.

I don't see auto-win as a credible worry TBH.

@Pyro : without further information I'm expecting something equivalent to the GK Codex, so the emphasis will still be on Marines, just with a side-order of squishy stuff (but not restricted by a single special character).

On a side note, the splitting of the squishy elements like that makes no damn sense, it's like allowing Blood Angels to use IG units and no one else.

[PyroSikTh]

On a side note, the splitting of the squishy elements like that makes no damn sense, it's like allowing Blood Angels to use IG units and no one else.

For the record I disagree completely, because Renegade Marines and their Cultists are more intrinsically involved with each other (same with GK and Inquisition) than -insert Marine Chapter here- and IG.

[Baragash]

For the record I disagree completely, but I know you're set in that opinion so explaining would be pointless.

Or to paraphrase: I have no conviction in the strength of my argument so I'm going to say "nurr, you're wrong" and then use an ad hominem to try and pretend that's not what I'm doing. Good show.

But to recap...

What we know about Renegades...
- not much as GW crow-barred them into the last Chaos book without really defining them as the fluff concentrated on specific events/stories to define them rather than providing an overview
- at least one has a lot of resources of a varying non-Marine nature (Huron, second only in assets to Abaddon per Blood Reaver, probably a deliberate insertion to turn him into the Mary Satan of the Renegades book)
- it's entirely reasonable that they would use non-Marine forces
- most of them are from autonomous fighting forces (ie Chapters), so whilst they might well join up with any variety of other renegade forces, they don't naturally start there

What we know about Legions...
- The Fallen often crop up attached to non-Marine forces in some leadership capacity
- the Legions had substantial amounts of non-Marine assets at there disposal, this was something that was changed in the organisation of the Imperium as a direct result of the Heresy, deliberately making it hard for others to up and leave with Imperial assets from multiple military branches
- the Alpha Legion, Ahriman and Tzeentch Marine cults manipulate non-Marine assets to do most of the work for them
- Abaddon commands the allegiance of lots of non-Marine assets
- Most (if not all) the factions used in Vraks are Legion, or Legion splinter groups

The second and third point are oft-repeated and long standing parts of the 40k fluff. GW can change what they want, it's their ball after all, but as it stands the established canon is as I have commented above.

[PyroSikTh]

Or to paraphrase: I have no conviction in the strength of my argument so I'm going to say "nurr, you're wrong" and then use an ad hominem to try and pretend that's not what I'm doing. Good show.

Sorry, Ninja'd.

[Baragash]

For the record I disagree completely, because Renegade Marines and their Cultists are more intrinsically involved with each other (same with GK and Inquisition) than -insert Marine Chapter here- and IG.

That's not the comparison I made, would you like to ninja yourself again armed with the knowledge of my longer post?

[PyroSikTh]

That's not the comparison I made, would you like to ninja yourself again armed with the knowledge of my longer post?

It's not like I Ninja'd after your reply.

Besides, there's nothing to ninja. Nothing you said went against what I said.

[Baragash]

Because the explanation you edited in does not make the comparison I made, so you've misunderstood what I've said, and my long post makes the comparison I'm drawing only interpretable in one way.

So you're disagreeing with a statement I haven't actually made.

[PyroSikTh]

Because the explanation you edited in does not make the comparison I made, so you've misunderstood what I've said, and my long post makes the comparison I'm drawing only interpretable in one way.

So you're disagreeing with a statement I haven't actually made.

Please, because this is really going to bug me, could you explain really simply as if you're talking to someone slow on the uptake exactly what your comparison is? Just so we're on the same page?