CSM Player looking to branch out into Chaos Daemons gradually

[RossAndrew1]

Hello there.
I've recently got back into Warhammer 40k after about 18 years away or something silly. I was very young when I first played, didn't understand the game at all, had no codex, just really enjoyed the painting side.
Now I still enjoy painting but I'm mature enough and patient enough to play the game.
Plus to my great surprise its ten times easier to play now lol.

Anyway, so far from my CSM army I have open to me to start into a Daemons army, 10 bloodletters, a Bloodthirster, 2 Daemon princes 1 painted up the generic way so as to give a fluff belief he could side with any god, and one as a Tzeentch 'Psycher' (yes I realise they don't have psychers, its deamonic gifts, but in CSM its still a psyche test).

I know thats not very much, but its a start I guess. And to be honest I wasn;t looking to field more than 1000 points anyway as we tend to have smaller 2 hour battles 750/1000 points at a time.

I'm finding CSM excellent to play, i love how brutal they are and direct in their style of fight and of course how customisable they are.

BUT their HQ's cost so damn much! I can't ever really use Abaddon or Typhus as they are just insane points.

Whereas from what I;ve read, although I have to split my army in two, to compensate I get to field bigger more powerful units at a somewhat reduced points cost. For example Fiends of Slaanesh and Bloodcrushers being almost as little as 50% of what the same number of Terminators would cost.

Anyway, my first question is about Daemonic Assault.

From reading the codex and the short section on this, am I right in concluding my first turn is basically taken up with Arriving from reserve.
When I land I can't assault or move but I can shoot?

And am I right in thinking that, IF I lose the roll to start the game, so my enemy deploys, I stay in reserve, declare solo units etc, and he will have a turn with nobody to shoot at? He can move around, get towards objectives and wait for me to Deep Strike?

If thats the case, essentially it might be better for him to go second? So after his deployment I deep strike in, shoot, and he gets a full turn to waste me before I get to move and assault?.

After turn one, I have to roll on the Deep Strike rule table to have the rest of my army come in from reserve?

getting back to my army list.

From what I have so far I have the guts of a fairly Khorne heavy army already.

My mates have Eldar, Orks, Dark Templars and Tau.

Now I know that a Khorne melee heavy army which can get in clsoe via Deep Strike vs Tau can seriously tear them up as their hand to hand is shocking. I've done it before with my CSM.
Against Orks and Eldar I tend to have a fairly ranged team which I pick them off while I run a rhino of Zerkers into their HQ's. Sit back with 1000 sons, a defiler, double autocannon marine squads, set of Nurgle termies to soak up some damage.

With Chaos Daemons, what is there with decent ranged abilities? I've really not seen much beyond the Flamers of Tzeentch?

Oh and by the way, we tend to play Annihilation more so than objective holding.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

I also understand that its better if I say, I have this list, please help me tweek it. Well i don't, I have what I have, money and a shop which stocks pretty much whatever I'd need close by I just need direction on what to go for against them

The Dark templar guy goes Tank Heavy, Land Raider, Predator, Dreadnought with Terminators/Assault Terminators, Emperors champion, Field Marshal, Chaplain in temrinator armor and two sets of marines generally.

Tau guy: Devilfish, Hammerhead tank or whatever its called, Sniper drones with Marker lights, Stealth squad, squad of kroot, fire warrior squad or two and those pathfinders or whatever they are and a commander.

Eldar guy: Generally Wraithlord, Warp Spider squad with exarch, howling Banshee with exarch, two squads of normal guardians, farseer with 2-3 warlocks, sometimes his Avatar, recently got swooping Hawks and dark reapers, very rarely a Falcon grav tank and generally 3 snipers.

Orks: War Trukk, squad of 15 ork boyz, 10 nobz, Big mek with Shokk Atatck gun, Warboss or Ghazkull, 3 Deffkopters, 3 Killa Kans, 5 stormboyz. Recently bought a squad of lootas, will definitely start using those next game.

Bare in mind, this is what they have, other than the Tau guy who's is definitely around 1000 points, the others I'm not sure, might be a bit over but tahts what they have access to.

As I said, any help at all will be great, not expecting answers to everything at all

cheers

[edmundblack]

BUT their HQ's cost so damn much! I can't ever really use Abaddon or Typhus as they are just insane points.

Abby is a tank, he'll hold his own with the best of them. Typhus is unimpressive and not worth it.

With Chaos Daemons, what is there with decent ranged abilities? I've really not seen much beyond the Flamers of Tzeentch?

Look up the Heralds. There's also a unit which can spew out 3 shots each at around 18"/24" which can lay down some hurt too. Soul Grinders are also good, and can double as Defilers in a Chaos Marine army too.

I'm not a Daemons expert, though I know a man who is. If he swings by, he'll give you far more good info than I can - I hunt them, not use them.

[PyroSikTh]

Yes, that's the basic thought behind Daemonic Assault. Always make your opponent go second and never steal the initiative, because it gives you an extra turn.

As for your army, you'll want at least 1 more pack of Bloodletters as they work best in large groups (12-15), and maybe a third pack if you want to go full-Khorne. As you usually play annihilation, keep away from anything Nurgle. Nurgle is for the objective-holding, and have almost no killing power whatsoever. For ranged you want Horrors and Flamers. Both are extremely good. You'll want small units of Horrors to get in as many Bolts of Tzeentch as you can to crack those vehicles open, and Flamers are just nasty.

[RossAndrew1]

Thanks for the info guys, definitely will keep that in mind about the initial turn.

Which of the HQ'a for daemons aren't worth it? I was looking at the Masque, seems fairly poor.
Both the greater daemons of Nurgle and Slaanesh seem pretty powerful and hard to kill.

Is there much point in upgrading my Bloodthirster to Skarbrand? 50 points does seem fairly reasonable for he upgrade but 300 to have him in general is a bit crazy.

Yeah from what I've been reading so far Nurgle does seem like the objective holding army. A bit boring i can imagine, rolling saving throws and standing around lol

[PyroSikTh]

I find that the only HQs worth worrying about are Great Unclean Ones, Keepers of Secrets, Bloodthirsters, Fateweaver, Skulltaker and Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots.

[jmg202]

as far as hq ive had good results with tzeentch herlads on chariots as well as slannesh, if you run a full nurgle force then the tally man is a must, but its just more fun then competitve lol. pretty much all the greater daemons can do alot of good, just depends on how you use them.

[RossAndrew1]

Hi again. Quick question. After reading through the codex and having my first battle with CD vs SM Dark Templars I found myself struggling a little with a couple of rules and with a few of the HQ's.

On my first daemonic assault deep strike into battle, I take it I am not allowed to move or assault but I can shoot as normal?

Also, Skarbrand and a Bloodthirster. What weapons do they use?

under Skarbrands fluff it says he wields two legendary daemonic axes. Are they considered normal close combat weapons? Are they Hellblades just like most close combat weapons for CD, or are they daemon weapons?
And if they are Daemon weapons are they like the ones described in the CSM codex and considered under the same rules as a Bloodfeeder since the Bloodthirsters come from Khorne?

Thanks

[PyroSikTh]

First turn Daemonic Assault is exactly like Deep Strike.

They have the weapons their entry in the codex says they have. But I'll give you a little hint; it's not going to be a Daemon Weapon as that's the wrong codex. Codices are complete unto themselves, and you do not need a second to use it. It's also not going to be the Hellblade as Skarbrand is a Monstrous Creature so his attacks already ignore armour saves.

[RossAndrew1]

Ahhhh, I did not realise that about Monstrous creatures. Thanks for the info