3 Attack Bikes vs. DropPod Dread w/MM and HF in Salamander Army

[hoya4life3381]

Salamander army with Vulkan gets to re-roll all meltas and flamers (including multimeltas and heavy flamers).

Here's my list:

Vulkan He’Stan – 190
5 Assault Terminators w/Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 200
Land Raider Redeemer + Multimelta + Extra Armor – 265

10 Tactical Marines - 220
-Meltagun
-Missle Launcher (for combat squading)
-Combi-Flamer
-Rhino

10 Tactical Marines - 220
-Meltagun
-Missle Launcher (for combat squading)
-Combi-Flamer
-Rhino

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70
Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

Vindicator - 115

Total: 1350

I can basically take either 3 Attack Bikes or 1 DropPod Dreadnought w/MM and HF.

The DropDread with re-roll to hit has a 8/9 chance of hitting which is amazing and will land on turn 1 usually behind enemy rear armor and more than reliably penetrate it. I could still get screwed by a bad results roll, but I'm still having a great chance of just wiping something off the board right away. Next, my opponent will for sure have to deal with the Dreadnought. However, the Dread will be in Melta range or melee range of Monstrous creatures that have nothing better to do than destroy it.

The 3 Attack Bikes would have to turbo-boost for 3+ Cover saves on turn 1 and hope to survive till turn 2 to shoot. However, again with the rerolls to hit, I can afford to lose 2 bikes and have 1 bike reliably able to penetrate a vehicle. The attack bike most likely will be going against side armor and maybe even front armor. Also, the attack bikes 3+ invuln save can be both amazing if you roll well, but also really bad if you fail right away and get instakilled. In theory, the Attack Bikes should be taking away ML and Lascannon shots away from your Vindicator/Land Raider.

Which unit would you recommend taking? I see a lot of Attack Bike vs. Speeder threads, but none of Attack Bike vs. Dreadnought!

*FYI Dreadnought is regular ole Dreadnought and not Venerable or Ironclad.

[Saint]

I would say the attack bikes, if more than one survives the enemy fire then you have 2-3 shots of melta.

[Pony_law]

I run a drop pod dread without vulkan and It still usually gets the job done. With bikes you have to worry about mass shots taking them down even though they ahve a 3+ cover save. For instance in my list my dakka pred would definitly be targeting your bikers and could probably kill a few while it would almost certainly do nothing against a dread. The dread requires the attention of anti-tank guns you don't want shooting at your LR or vindicator, and if they don't blow it up they lose another vehicle or a unit gets tar pitted.

[33rd Salamander]

well if they dont have anything that can pen front and side armor then the dread and keep him facing the enemy but otherwise i'd suggest the bikes if u endd up having them take mass hoards of shots then u save another unit for another round to shoot them. i really think it depends on there army

[hoya4life3381]

Thanks for your advice so far! I think The DropPod dread was slightly better in the first scenario since I had no alternative marine bodies to be shot other than bikes. Basically I was all vehcile and bikes!

I've decided that I'm going to be combat squading my two tactical squads when the opportunity arises to get some more long-range firepower out of the missle launchers. I'm going to drop the Vindicator and take the Rifleman dread so that I have a small firebase composed of the 2 combat squads with Missle Launchers and the Dread with 2 Twin-Autocannons. That's 6 pretty accurate shots (should average 5 hits) of transport-opening fire from range that should help cover my advance. I'm still not sold on the Vindicator since any glance will make it useless and then an opponent will go right back to the LRR anyways.

Since I'm combat-squading, I'm going to go back to the flamer/combi-flamer combo for the squads in Rhinos Since my 5 man aggresive squad will have 3 bolters only, I need to pack the flamers to make them truly an anti-infantry force. Even if the combat squad is only good against hordes, it wouldn't be any better shooting against marines because bolters just don't do anything. Might as well tailor it against something it can shine at. I decided to combat squad because adding 5 more bolter shots wasn't as good as having a long-range heavy weapon in an army that could use it.

Vulkan He’Stan – 190
5 Assault Terminators w/Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 200
Land Raider Redeemer + Multimelta + Extra Armor – 265

"Rifleman" Dreadnought w/2 TL-Autocannons - 125

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad
-Flamer
-Combi-Flamer
-Rhino

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad
- Missle Launcher

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad
-Flamer
-Combi-Flamer
-Rhino

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad
- Missle Launcher

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70
Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

Total: 1350

With this new army list, should I go with Attack Bikes or DropPod Dread w/MM and HF? I'm thinking I go with the Attack Bikes because I now have more stuff in the open with a firebase of Rifleman and 2 Tac Combat Squads. Since my firebase is going to be targetting transports, I'm also going to be dedicating the Attack Bikes to try to kill transports as well.

The Drop Dread would go for stuff like a Leman Russ, but getting rid of mech transports quickly seems to be a higher targeting priority for me. But then again, having a dreadnought in the back (Drop Dread) and a Dread in the front (Rifleman Dread) would mean a better split of fire. Again, I don't have any real marine bodies to distract them from shooting at the attack bikes since the regular 10 marines in the back (with Missles) would be much lower on priority scale. Since I have transport-killing more covered now that I'm combat squading and taking Rifleman, I'm kind of leaning toward Drop Dread since I will now be all vehicle again (except for Combat Squads). The Drop Dread can go after say a Leman Russ and just take it out evenly at that point.

What would you suggest now with the army change?

[jago668]

Myself I think I would drop pod dread. You've got 2 speeders that can do similar work. You've got the rifleman, and 2 missiles that can catch transports. You can even catch one with the land raider with a drive by melta'ing. However you don't have anything that puts pressure on heavy armor right at the start. Being able to put pressure on leman russes, or pop a land raider right at the get go can be invaluable. You can drop it next to a gaunt horde and flame them down, ork boyz, maybe a kroot squad on an objective, or some pathfinders/rangers.

[scythes]

I would have suggested you take 3 attack bikes, put them each in their own squad so you have three separate bikes running around. Even if you run them together in a group, they're separate choices. So if they get shot buy a whole squad, most you can lose is one. Also, it means you can choose different targets for each. Bike one shoots this, blows it up, bike 2 shoots this, misses, bike 3 can then shoot this and get a second chance. It opens to take out more things and makes then a bit more survivable.

[hoya4life3381]

I do like the 3 attack bikes as a single unit much better (most things work better that way), but I don't really want to drop the speeders. Speeders are more expensive with 2 being the price of 3 bikes, but the Heavy Flamer versatility is so nice.

[SalamanderMan]

Go with the dreadnought. 3 bikes is over kill when you are getting a reroll on the hits for the multi melts. But then you have to make sure you are at least making your points back on the dreadnought before he gets destroyed.

[wookieplus]

I think that there are arguments both ways - and you've seen this in the response you've got. I think that its good to have variety, so change your army every so often, and run both as your mood suits

Although the armour argument made above is a good one, personally I would normally go with the attack bikes rather than the dread. Reason for this is that armies these days proliferate in meltaguns, and parachuting a single vehicle unit into your opponents lines tends to provide him with Melta-meat whilst the rest of your tanks are still distant. Also, with the DP, its 2 KPs on annihilation missions.

Regarding your second army list; I'm presuming you wont Combat Squad on annihilation missions!

Here are two options worth considering for other army variants on the theme you have:
(1) with the DP/Dread: replace your rhinos with droppods so you have a 3-DP army. You then drop in 2 units on the first turn, and the third comes in wherever you need it later on. Depending on what you are fighting, you can choose to bring the dread in early or late.
(3) with the attack bikes: Replace the landspeeders with melta attack bikes too (I hate the LS paper-thin armour). 6 attack bikes in 3 pairs gives the same number of KP. I have found attack bikes work better in pairs than threesomes, because you only need one of them partially obscured to get a 4+ cover save, which is often easy to achieve with both of them being in a firing position - so you can snipe from the cover of your tanks if the option of turbo boosting and flank fire isnt a good one with your opponents setup. This option probably works better with the vindi rather than rifleman dread, as your army is very assaulty and the vindi provides an additional cover unit for the bikes.

[J2008]

I don't particularly care for suicide units, and thats exactly what the Dread would be. Combine that with the IMO bizzare MM/HF Land Speeders and you've just packed your list with 3 suicide units.

Land Speeders have 1 defense mechanism and that is staying out of range of small arms fire. In theory the MM/HF land Speeder is great in a Salamander list because OMG both weapons are twin linked. However, in practice the Melta pops the transport/tank and then the Land Speeder is vulnerable to return fire from the bolters (or other S4 weapons, even bolt pistols can shoot down a speeder). If you're taking land speeders take ones that can keep range and protect themselves from small arms fire.

I'm also not a fan of the "rifleman" dreadnaught because Autocannons need 4+ or 5+ to pop most transports.

What do I like, MM attack bikes, especially in an army large enough to provide them lanes of cover between or behind rhinos.

I also think a 3rd full unit of troops would be useful.

[Albatross]

I don't particularly care for suicide units, and thats exactly what the Dread would be. Combine that with the IMO bizzare MM/HF Land Speeders and you've just packed your list with 3 suicide units.

i personally find that the drop pod dread is a good enough disruption to make it worth its points, even as a suicide unit. It provides a good wrench to throw into your opponent's strategy, as it becomes a threat they have to deal with then and there, and can disrupt carefully planned movements. It gives you at least a turn of rhino movement without worrying about getting shot at, and will pull fire off the speeders as well.

The real trick is to get the dread to land with an infantry squad between it and the vehicle you're going to be shooting at. Though it may not have range or be capable of damaging the vehicle, the flamer is going to do some serious damage to the infantry sandwiched between your dread and the vehicle. Two for the price of one!