Where is the cheese?

[Mustrum]

I undertsand a lot of folk take the GK codex to be over powered. Can some one tell me what part they consider so?
I only have the necron codex as reference. And they same fine in comparison to them!

[Fingers]

Psybolts on vehicles for 5pts comes to mind. Psyker Troops with assault 2 guns and powerweapons for 5pts more than a marine is another I could think of. Psychotroke Grenades are pretty nifty.

[daddy4count]

I think every new codex that comes out gets the "Oh my god they will kill us all!" treatment.

The fact that they are all psykers, all get storm bolters and power weapons, etc... terminators as troops are standard, psifleman dreds...

Very cool toys, but when a new book drops people only see the shiny... they tend to ignore the balancing features of a strong codex. There are always drawbacks that keep the army in line with the rest of the game.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Throwing multiple grenades that have crazy effects, all from only one guy in the squad (techmarines). Being able to outshoot all but the shootiest armies while outfighting all but the choppiest armies. Strength 9, Initiative 6 force weapons, with 2D6 to pen. An anti-vehicle shot that on average rolls a 17, before rending (with 4 chances to rend). Scoring Monstrous Creatures with a 2+/5++ and the ability to teleport onto objectives without scattering. Strength 7 rending weapons. A squad meant to exploit the hell out of Wound Allocation. Vehicles almost immune to Shaken and Stunned results. Dreadnoughts with 4 twin_linked Strength 8 shots. Purifiers in general.

Those are a few off the top of my head. It's definitely a strong codex

[edmundblack]

But lacking in melta weaponry, plasma en-mass, missiles, multi meltas and lascannons in anywhere near the amount that any other MEQ army has.

Psychotrokes are a cheap-shot anyway. They don't need them.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Only if you stay pure GK, EB. Henchman make it very easy to pack a lot of special weapons into a list. And it's not like I've ever seen a GK list that had a hard time destroying vehicles, so the lack of melta doesn't hurt much.

Really, there's a reason GK completely overhauled the meta. They are a very powerful codex and will continue at the peak or at least near the peak of codex competitiveness well into 6th.

[BrokenWing]

Don't forget a lot of what you listed requires passing psychic tests, which are shockingly easy to fail. They can also be blocked by hoods/ eldarness and so on. A Grey Knight army without psychic powers is just a really expensive space marine army.

[edmundblack]

Only if you stay pure GK, EB. Henchman make it very easy to pack a lot of special weapons into a list. And it's not like I've ever seen a GK list that had a hard time destroying vehicles, so the lack of melta doesn't hurt much.

Really, there's a reason GK completely overhauled the meta. They are a very powerful codex and will continue at the peak or at least near the peak of codex competitiveness well into 6th.

The Inquisition is such a pathetically half-arsed attempt at what might have been pure brilliance that I do not include them in any topic that relates to "Grey Knights".

Also - see what BrokenWing said.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

The psychic powers are nice and what really push 'em to the top, but the codex is fine without them. What do your awesome basic troopers lose with no psychic powers? +1 Strength or Instant Death. They still have mobile firepower and a force weapon for only 4 points more than a regular marine. I don't find that expensive. Psycannons don't need a psychic power to rock like they do. Nor do hoods effect grenades. The halberds still make models I6. Your terminators are still the same cost as regular C:SM terminators but come with grenades and better heavy weapons. Psychic powers are what make the super craziness like the Strength 9 Intiative 6 attacks, but even without em, that model still has an Int 6 force weapon.

[Mustrum]

Ooh Str 9, 6 attacks? Where did I miss that!? And yeah I guess every army is dam cheesy if used right. I am new to this game of war, and I picked up GK first because I thought the models looked awesome. (And they still do) I plan on making a flamey. Purge the unclean type of theme army

[BrokenWing]

Initiative 6 means nothing if you never reach close combat. Regular marine Terminators can all have 3+ invul saves against shooting and close combat for 0 points and storm bolters are great, so are psycannons. The same can be said about assault cannons, cyclone missile launchers, free missile launchers for tactical marines and Sternguard.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

The psycannon is so good for its points, I seriously do not see a need for any other heavy weapons besides the obligatory Psyfleman Dread.

And yes, TH/SS are more survivavble. They're not even close to as flexible though And the Int 6 applies to all models that can get it, not just terminators. PA GKs don't have a hard time getting into combat, and for damn sure neither do Paladins.

[Mustrum]

You as a veteran player is meant to big up this army for me!

[BrokenWing]

Grey Knights are fantastically fun to play, don't get us wrong, we're just debating the finer points of balance. Part of my Chapter uses Grey Knight rules (all in storm ravens) it's lots of fun.

That said, I find a need for other heavy weapons all the time. I don't like relying on Rending to penetrate armored vehicles, especially since I almost never roll it. That's why my Storm Ravens have multi-meltas on them and every squad has a Daemon Hammer. I'll give you the flexibility issue, obviously thunder hammers and storm shields are not as flexible, but they are *very* good at what they do and for no points. I don't really think about Halberds on other units except Purifiers, because generally I don't consider it worth the upgrade on one attack models. Psyrifle dread are understandably really good, but suffer the same vulnerabilities as any other shooting dreadnought. It may be easy to get units into combat, but if someone is worried about Initiative Six power weapons, they should do everything in their power to prevent this from happening, which was the point I was getting at.

[Mustrum]

Ah ha! I have been known to be a horrible person to gm because of my crit hitting luck ability lets hope it passes over games!

[jettzypher]

i will agree with the things sharp say that makes the GK's strong. but i am curious about your comment of str 9, int 6 hits. how do you come to this conclusion?

[edmundblack]

Also, re. THammernaters - who cares about assaulting into cover if you're going last anyway? In a straight out 5 Vs 5 fight, the GKs would pull ahead early and then lose drastically.

Grey Knights are great fun to use, and challenging. But I would advise anyone who was looking to play them: don't be a dick, you'll win no friends by doing it. Ask yourself "When is my opponent supposed to have fun?" and reign in the excess. After all, they don't need it.

To get str10, I10, you need: Two HQs, Squad, 3 Techmarines. Librarian casts Quicksilver and Might of Titan, other HQ casts Hammerhand, each Techmarine casts Hammerhand and the Squad casts Hammerhand too. So that's +2 str from the HQs, +3 from the Techmarines and +1 from the Squad = str10, I10, 2D6 Armour Penetration.

[BrokenWing]

And just see EB's avatar for your opponent's response =).

[edmundblack]

Exactly.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[Mustrum]

I KNOW I am showing my ignorance here lads. I mean what in this army is so horrendous that you can be a dick to someone?

That say..an Eldar player cant? (My nearest gaming shop is 5 hours away, and even there they aint a friendly bunch, very cliquey, the gf used to be a font of knowledge in the 3rd and 4th editions, now we are both noobs as is my friends I will play with, so bare with me!)