New Player, New Lists

[Thramkalith]

Okay, well, I'm just sort of "getting into," as it were, WH 40k in general and have taken an interst in the Chaos Daemons. A few of my immediate friend's opinions have been something like "They suck, they're not really supported, and you shouldn't play them," buuut I also know they play in a very limited scene and haven't actually seen anyone playing CD. So a few questions:

1) Are CD really horribly under supported/powered resulting in time and money investment in them being kind of a trap?

2) Assuming that isn't the case, what are the general tactics that are important for them to use? Like, I've concocted my own "theory" on how to play, but it's all just in my head, I haven't played the game proper enough to actually have any idea.

Annnd finally I drew up some... Proto-lists based on my friend's tendency to play about 1500 point games following two different plans/routes of thought. Do either of this seem at all viable?

List A:

1/2 HQ: 225 Points
Keeper of Secrets: 200
-Daemonic Gaze: 15

2/3 Elites: 276 Points
Flamers of Tzeentch 6: 138 Points
Flamers of Tzeentch 6: 138 Points

3/6Troops: 330 Points
8 Daemonettes: 112 points
-Chaos Icon: 25 Points
7 Daemonettes: 98 points
-Chaos Icon: 25 Points
5 Deamonetts: 70 points

2/3 Fast Attack: 320
10 Seekers of Slaanesh: 170 Points
6 Screamers of Tzeentch: 150 Points

2/3 Heavy Support: 355 Points
Daemon Prince: 80 Points [155]
-Mark of Tzeentch: 25 Points
-Daemonic Gaze: 20 Points
-Breath of Chaos: 30 Points

Daemon Prince: 80 Points [200]
-Mark of Tzeentch 25 Points
-Master of Sorcery 10 Points
-Bolt of Tzeentch: 35 Points
-Daemonic Gaze: 20 Points
-Breath of Chaos: 30 Points

Total: 1496


List B:

1/2 HQ: 150 Points
Herald of Tzeentch: 50 Points
-Master of Sorcery: 5 Points
-Bolt of Tzeentch: 30 Points

Herald of Slaanesh: 50 points
-Transfixing Gaze: 5 Points
-Unholy Might: 10 Points

2/3 Elites: 230 Points
Flamers of Tzeentch 5: 115 Points
Flamers of Tzeentch 5: 115 Points


4/6Troops: 659
10 Daemonettes: 140 points
-Chaos Icon: 25 Points
9 Daemonettes: 126 points
10 Pink Horrors: 170
-Bolt of Tzeentch: 10 points
9 Pink Horrors: 153
-Chaos Icon: 25 Points
-Bolt of Tzeentch: 10 Points

2/3 Fast Attack: 300
6 Screamers of Tzeentch: 150 Points
6 Screamers of Tzeentch: 150 Points

1/3 Heavy Support: 160
Daemon Prince: 80 Points [160]
-Mark of Tzeentch 25 Points
-Bolt of Tzeentch: 35 Points
-Daemonic Gaze: 20 Points

Points: 1499


Thanks for your time and attention, and in advance for your help ^_^

[PyroSikTh]

1) Are CD really horribly under supported/powered resulting in time and money investment in them being kind of a trap?

Are they unsupported? All you have to do is pick up the latest White Dwarf to see that's simply just not true.

Are they underpowered? Possibly. Many competitive players on the internet are vehemently against Daemons just because of their unique and somewhat random deployment, but it really isn't as bad as they make out, and we have some of the most over-the-top broken units on paper.

2) Assuming that isn't the case, what are the general tactics that are important for them to use? Like, I've concocted my own "theory" on how to play, but it's all just in my head, I haven't played the game proper enough to actually have any idea.

Because of Daemons deployment method, you tend to have to play reactively to what your opponent does, so any tactics or strategies you have have to be vague and flexible. However our units are reasonably specialized so we have pretty much the perfect counter to everything.

As for the lists, the most striking problem is your Daemonettes. You need to double the amount of models per unit. At T3 with 5+ save, they're going to die super easy, so they need numbers to actually get anything done. I'd be looking at around 15 per squad.

[Thramkalith]

Honestly the "Vague and flexible" strategy angle is kind of what interests me about them, really ^_^

Uhm, a question, though, building on the idea of needing substantially greater quantities of 'nettes, what do I have plenty/too much of to make up for the substantial shifting of points? Or rather, where should those points come from, as we're talking some pretty hard to make cuts wherever it is.

[MortrexO]

i totally agree with that u need more demonettes and u should take a look at the new seeker chariots as well as their are just awesome. the flamers in your list i think work very well and for cracking light vehicles they new flying tzeentch things are also more than good
hope that helps

[PyroSikTh]

Dropping Chaos Icons is a good place to start. Trimming the Daemon Princes too. Going for a single cheap HQ instead of 2 Heralds or one Greater Daemon.

In the Second list, you could just combine the two Daemonette squads together without any diminished scoring ability.

[Risen Redwyrmling]

I'm agreeing with Pyro on pretty much everything he says (that has to be a first time, isn't it, Pyro?).

Bulk up the units of troops. I'd drop the seekers (not much of a fan of seekers as fiends do the same but better) in list 1 to bulk up the units. Less then 15 daemonettes is a bad idea.

List two is a lot more interesting and here, just combining the daemonette squads will do the trick. Screamers are just awesome. I used a unit of 8 last friday and they went through a Leman Russ, a squad of veterans, a manticore, a chimera and my opponent didn't manage to kill them by the end of the battle.

[Thramkalith]

Hrmm, okay, so I guess I'll focus on the second list more since it's in better condition, other than combining the two demonette lists is it still worth pulling the Chaos Icons for the 50 points for other figures/toys/whatever? I was under the impression Chaos Icons could be pretty important once the field got to be a bit more of a mess so as to avoid mishaps, but are they not as necessary as that?

Also, I must admit, I've been in part avoiding Fiends because their models are so expensive (In the $$) o_o I mean, really (So... Much... Resin...), so I've sort of overlooked them. Still, any other general tweaks/etc? I should consider?

[Risen Redwyrmling]

As seekers are described in the daemon codex as riding giends of slaanesh, I've just used those models. I've cut off the sadles and I use one regular Fiend as the one with Unholy Strength. Loads cheaper and if I want I can still put the daemonette on and use it as a seeker.

[Eryx_UK]

Daemons aren't underpowered at all. It's just that since their original release players have learned how to handle them better. Daemons are still quite good but you have to work out how to play them versus the various opponent types (MEQ, Horde, GK...etc).

[Thramkalith]

Actually, speaking of, how DO you play them versus Gray Knights? I've always been told the GK special abilities will just kind of stun lock you into oblivion and you'll straight up lose almost no matter what you do (granted I don't actually know what these abilities are so...) How does that pan out?

[PyroSikTh]

It's not as much of a full-gone conclusion as people make out, but it's undoubtedly our toughest match-up. I've only beaten Grey Knights once, and it was really close at that.

[Risen Redwyrmling]

The most annoying thing that they have is that their normal troops (GK strike squads) can project a buble that will automatically make your have a mishap if they deepstrike in that radius. (or at least I believe that was the case).
In all fairness, daemons have gotten a major boost vs GK with the update. Flamers now being very cheap and still wounding on a 4+ without armour saves is good but the screamers will be able to deal with GK all the better with S5 AP2 and 4 attacks on the charge.

But yes, GK are probably the most difficult army to play against, then again, that's not just the case for daemon players...