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  1. #1
    shamen86's Avatar
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    Semantic Loophole?

    So I was working on a new roster and while I was reading the page for Windriders, I noticed that the warlock that can accompany them (Windrider Warlock) has a different name than when you give jetbikes to a Warlock Conclaive (Warlock Skyrunner).

    I also noticed that it says "any windrider" when talking about the weapon upgrades.

    Therefor, since he is a Windrider Warlock, shouldn't he be able to upgrade his jetbike's gun?

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  2. #2
    Wookie2012's Avatar
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    No because he is a Windrider Warlock, not a Windrider.
    Just like Any Deathwing Terminator can take a TH/SS but a Deathwing Sergeant cannot.

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  3. #3
    The Truth Architech's Avatar
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    grammar-wise, the opposite argument would be true. In this case he would not be a windrider, but a warlock augmented by they descriptive word windrider...whereas the other unit would be a skyrunner modified by the word warlock.


    In either case, typically, any unit with a different statline/name entry is a different unit and cannot take the upgrades allowed by another, regardless of similar wording in their names. Presumably in this codex instance, the wording 'any' simply means that if you choose, you may give the upgrade to any number of the windriders...rather than any -type- of windrider that is technically not a windrider but a warlock

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  4. #4
    Lord of the Pit Baragash's Avatar
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    Not sure what Arch is drinking tonight, but I'd like some.....

    The convention is thus:
    When an equipment option says "any model in the unit may" you can give it to any model (duh!), grunt, warlock, space marine, sergeant, champion, giraffe, whatever.
    When an equipment option says (for example) "any Space Marine in the unit may" it can only be given to a Space Marine, not to a Sergeant (or Champion, or Apothecary, or whatever models with a different name may be in the unit).

    In answer to the specific question, if it says "Windrider" it can only be given to the basic model called "Windrider".

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  5. #5
    Nuts. edmundblack's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Baragash View Post
    giraffe
    Most feared stealth units ever.

    Also: what Bara said. Warlocks are good enough anyway with their mindbullets and whatnot, they don't need even more icing on their cake.

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  6. #6
    The Truth Architech's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Baragash View Post
    Not sure what Arch is drinking tonight, but I'd like some
    it's called correctness, a nutty start with a crisp clean finish.

    just saying in the first bit, that the word which comes first in those cases is the describing word and not the object of description as was suggested in the op. So what kind of warlock or what kind of skyrunner or whatever. The rest followed suit with what you said, with name matching

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  7. #7
    Phail's Avatar
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    I understand arch completely - a windrider warlock would be entirely different to a warlock windrider

    I.e. If it says "a windrider may...." Then a warlock windrider could but a windrider warlock couldn't

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  8. #8
    The Truth Architech's Avatar
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    For the record, my bit on grammar was not in any way trying to explain a rule in the game at all. It has no bearing on the game in anyway. My only point with it, was that it factually disproved that the 'semantic loophole' suggested could exist for the reason given.

    as said a different unit is a different giraffe

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  9. #9
    SourImplant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edmundblack View Post
    Most feared stealth units ever.
    Always have line of sight.

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  10. #10
    Venerable Ironclad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SourImplant View Post
    Always have line of sight.
    And they can come out of nowhere...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRPwMBAtfTY

    Cyberpunk Necrons - http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthre...erpunk-Necrons
    Mutant Rat Guard - http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthre...tant-Rat-Guard
    Space Marines - http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthre...-Space-Marines

    They say there are no dumb questions. To that I say: "Is this a dumb question?"
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  11. #11
    mayegelt's Avatar
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    The more fun argument seems to be coming from the Aspect Host and Avenger Shines. The rule of 'Rites of Battle' says "Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, choose either Weapon Skill of Ballistic Skill. All units in this formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic." or for 'Rites of the Avenger' "All models in this Formation add 1 to their Ballistic Skill".
    Now some have posed the question of if you buy a Wave Serpent transport for the unit, does it get the bonus +1 to BS. In the case of the Dire Avengers it seems 100% yes. But in the case of the Aspect Shine there are some arguing that the Wave Serpent is not a unit bought as part of the Formation (though personally I think it clearly is as it is bought as a dedicated transport in the formation, so is a unit in the Formation). Also if a unit went for the WS bonus, would that mean that the Wave Serpent as part of that unit would not be able to choose the BS upgrade as the unit (10 Banshees and a Wave Serpent being 1 unit for instance).
    I personally think that the bonus is meant to be for the aspects, but as written it applies to those guardians who pilot the vehicles as well. But actually a good case could be made that the crew work with the aspects in training or are just slightly better trained than a regular pilot and gunner. OR maybe even that they do have a limited number of a currently unnamed aspect that works as wave serpent crew for transporting aspect shines.

    Last edited by mayegelt; 21st May 2015 at 08:58.
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  12. #12
    Lord of the Pit Baragash's Avatar
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    I think you need to post a link to that argument because nothing in what you've posted makes the two rules functionally different for a Wave Serpent - it is both a unit AND a model, on the basis of the rules quoted, they will either both enhance it or both not.

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  13. #13
    Gorkagirl SonsOfStalingrad's Avatar
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    A dedicated transport purchased for a unit in a formation counts as part of the formation.
    Both rules effect it.

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  14. #14
    mayegelt's Avatar
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    The argument is on another forum, and I know the rules normally say not to post other forums on here, so will wait for permission to post the link before posting it.

    Personally as I said I think it is clear the serpents are included in the bonus, it seems as though the counter arguments are

    We've had some debates in my FLGS about this, and the consensus--that I agree with--is that it's not. You buy it for a unit in the Formation, but it's not part of the unit itself, so not part of the Formation. A Wave Serpent isn't an Independent Character, joining a unit to count as part of it. It is its own unit, can score objectives by itself, etc. The unit that bought it as a Designated Transport can get out and another unit can get in. So we're inclined to say that, by the wording of the Aspect Warshrine, or whatnot, no, the Wave Serpents don't get the bonus.
    The principle is correct, but the terminology is not. Wave Serpents are not part of a unit - they are a seperate unit that is also in the Formation (and shares a slot in a Force Organisation Chart). No real difference for this argument, but just a heads up for future discussions.
    Those are the benefits for what a Dedicated Transport is. I.e, they do not use a FoC slot, and count as the same Battlefield Role as the unit they're bought for; i.e have Objective Secured when a Troop Dedicated Transport in CAD, for example.

    In addition, as if that wasn't enough, there are special rules for what happens when units deploy with Dedicated Transports; i.e Infiltrate. Infiltrate normally affects all models in the unit, but if the unit has a Dedicated Transport, then if it was part of the unit anyway, it would recieve that benefit normally.

    I can see the thinking behind it, but it's not part of the unit, just an option that allows a non-FoC unit.
    Thanks Vaz! I think the wording "to be selected together with the unit" is enought to say that it is not part of the unit but is a dedicated transport part of the formation? "All units in this formation" is the wording in the Eldar Codex.
    Some of these would be taken slightly out of context by not seeing the counter points being made around them, but gives you the idea. Though I amongst others have pointed out that actually in all the 7th edition codex you seem to be able to buy the dedicated transports as their own units as fast attacks (ghost ark, drop pods, wave serpents, rhinos...)

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  15. #15
    Gorkagirl SonsOfStalingrad's Avatar
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    You can buy them separately, this is true.
    However, that would be separate to the formation - For example, let's say your formation was a Spiritseer and four units of Wraithguard.
    You can buy a waveserpent individually, but it's not part of the formation because it isn't taken as part of it. it's not on the list of requirements, it cannot be included as such. This would also make the army unbound if not placed on another formation or detachment.
    However, if one of those units of Wraithguard in the formation took a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport, that is a unit (as any grouping of one or more models is a unit in the game) and it was purchased for a unit in the formation, thereby making it part of the formation - so it is a unit in the formation, as it is a unit of one wave serpent. That's why the Datasheet says 'Unit Composition: 1 Waveserpent. Note it says unit. - We can go one further than this. Vehicles purchased as dedicated transports in your primary detachment are still part of the primary detachment, ergo, ones in a formation are part of a formation.

    Last edited by SonsOfStalingrad; 21st May 2015 at 10:40.
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  16. #16
    Wookie2012's Avatar
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    I don't understand how a unit purchased on top of a formation becomes part of that formation. The rules for the formation are "must have x x x x x".

    For example, if there was a Space Marine formation that must take a Chapter Master, 2 Tactical squads, and an Assault squad, by the above thinking, the Chapter Master could take an Honour guard, as it doesn't use an army slot.

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  17. #17
    Lord of the Pit Baragash's Avatar
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    That's not the same question.

    The requirement to be allowed to take an Honour Guard is the inclusion of the Chapter Master in the army. One of two things would happen:
    a) you have no other FOCs or formations, taking the Honour Guard makes the army Unbound
    b) you have a FOC or Formation the Honour Guard can be part of, the army is not Unbound

    What wouldn't happen is the Honour Guard becoming part of the formation (given in your example).

    Dedicated Transports are a different kettle of fish as they have additional rules dependencies and interactions that non-DTs that require unit unlocks don't have.

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  18. #18
    Wookie2012's Avatar
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    But it's a unit, and you're adding a unit to a formation that does not allow that unit. The DT is also unlocked by having a unit choice that says you can take a DT. You can't take a Rhino as part of a Scout squad.

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  19. #19
    mayegelt's Avatar
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    See the argument has been brought here as well
    My viewpoint is as said above you are part of the formation so you get the bonus. The thing that seems to be going against it is "Why would the Guardians driving the tanks get the bonus for the Aspect Host having better Aspect Warriors than the normal guys when Guardians aren't an aspect." So is RAI not meant to have the bonus. Though again as I put above it might be that they might be an unclassed aspect of wave serpent drivers or that they are just better trained and drilled Guardians than the regular guys... or of course it might be that those wave serpents are actually attached to the Aspect Shines and have Spirit Stones of fallen Aspect Warriors living on and being useful as helpers to the normal driver and gunner, so due to knowing the tactics of the shine they came from they become better adapted to the style in which they are required to work with.

    Last edited by mayegelt; 21st May 2015 at 17:12.
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  20. #20
    Lord of the Pit Baragash's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wookie2012 View Post
    But it's a unit, and you're adding a unit to a formation that does not allow that unit.
    No you're not. Nothing in taking the Honour Guard adds it to a specific formation or FOC, taking the Chapter Master simply allows you to include the Honour Guard somewhere in your army.

    EDIT: been reading the rulebook...conclusion: DTs are part of a formation. There's a few reasons, but the simplest one is...

    Originally Posted by Formations boxout
    Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain.
    A DT is part of the Army List Entry for the unit that can select it, and therefore is part of the formation.

    Just to double-down on rules quotes...

    Originally Posted by Dedicated Transports boxout
    Sometimes a unitís Army List Entry will include a Transport option,allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit.


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