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  1. #1
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    New to WH:40K: What should I start with?

    Hello! I am... well, in terms of gameplay, incredibly new to WH:40K, as I simply haven't had the money to invest in it. So, considering that I am a new player, what should be my first investment?

    Note: Although I am a new player, I think I would want something more Space-mariney, just because they are probably your most vanilla faction in WH:40K, and, thus, the easiest to get support with. However, I think that I'll eventually want to develop a Raptor Chapter army (referred to by some as the "definitively cheapest Space Marines Chapter to play.)... And, because, aside from Salamanders, they have to be one of the least "Space-Fascist" chapters to be affiliated with.

    Dark Vengeance: Looks like a good starter set, but seems a little high-priced for what it offers. Not sure if it comes with paint, which would make the high price a little more reasonable. However, it does come with two armies, which would allow me to learn the rules against someone else. (2 converts for the price of one!)

    "Start Collecting:" Honestly, I haven't given these sets much thought, as they mostly seem to be focused towards developing collections, and I'm honestly not sure if there are any Raptor "Start Collecting" sets.

    Picking-up various things by scratch: Yeah... I've thought about purchasing the components individually and putting them together, but I'm not sure what would make a representative Raptor army. I'm also not sure how the price would compare.
    A list on what to put together to accurately represent a Raptor army (and an associated price) would be nice.

    Anyway, just would like some help with this.

    By the way, in terms of priorities, since I've made posts about other stuff here, I'd like to make a quick list:

    My Dream (Priority 0)- Battlefleet Gothic. Well, since it went OOP, this one is likely to live unfulfilled. However, I have had some suggestions on similar games that compare favorably. Should Games Workshop ever bring it back for a reasonable price, I would probably jump at the opportunity.

    Priority 1: Warhammer 40K. My introduction to Miniatures games. Learn the basics, git gud, branch out.

    Priority 2: Dropfleet Commander. Recommended to me by The Librarian (shoutout!) because BFG is out of production ($240 for a starter set off eBay? Yeesh!) The reason that this is priority 2 is that almost everywhere, except eBay, which I'm a little nervous of, to be honest, seems to be out-of-stock of this game. Also, I'm not sure how widespread Dropfleet Commander gameplay is, whereas even my local everything-nerdy shop (Atomic Empire) throws WH:40K Tournaments and games every now and then.

    Priority 3: Dropzone Commander. Again, seems like a good game, but I feel like it would be hard to find someone else who had an army and knew how to play. Whereas WH:40K is worldwide.

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  2. #2
    Knight of the Eclipse manollette's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SeraphsWrath View Post
    Hello! I am... well, in terms of gameplay, incredibly new to WH:40K, as I simply haven't had the money to invest in it. So, considering that I am a new player, what should be my first investment?

    Note: Although I am a new player, I think I would want something more Space-mariney, just because they are probably your most vanilla faction in WH:40K, and, thus, the easiest to get support with. However, I think that I'll eventually want to develop a Raptor Chapter army (referred to by some as the "definitively cheapest Space Marines Chapter to play.)... And, because, aside from Salamanders, they have to be one of the least "Space-Fascist" chapters to be affiliated with.
    Space Marines do make a good starter army - financially, they're the easiest to acquire because they're the starter army for a LOT of people who wind up getting out of the hobby and selling them. They're also very versatile. Varying chapter tactics and unit roles mean they're one of a few armies that you can play however you want and still make it work (Good luck if you want to run a stabby Tau army).

    First investments would be the core rulebook and your codex, as well as dice, a tape measurer and blast templates. The first two may or may not be downloadable in PDF format for free somewhere on the internet, but we can't officially condone that on the forums.

    Dark Vengeance: Looks like a good starter set, but seems a little high-priced for what it offers. Not sure if it comes with paint, which would make the high price a little more reasonable. However, it does come with two armies, which would allow me to learn the rules against someone else. (2 converts for the price of one!)
    One of the advantages to the starter sets is that it IS a great deal - that said, it becomes less desirable if you're only one person getting into the hobby. Look around for FB groups or on craigslist, and see if you can find someone to go 50-50 with you for the chaos portion while you take the Marines. Also for saving money, if you buy from an independent retailer, you can save a little extra too. The War Store out there on the East Coast has a web store, and you can order from them - their GW product price list *always* lists GW's current price, along with their price right beside it, at 25% off.

    "Start Collecting:" Honestly, I haven't given these sets much thought, as they mostly seem to be focused towards developing collections, and I'm honestly not sure if there are any Raptor "Start Collecting" sets.
    No vanilla space marine chapter will have a starter set unique to them. You'd be looking for the Space Marine start collecting set, here

    Picking-up various things by scratch: Yeah... I've thought about purchasing the components individually and putting them together, but I'm not sure what would make a representative Raptor army. I'm also not sure how the price would compare.
    A list on what to put together to accurately represent a Raptor army (and an associated price) would be nice.
    This is one of those things that's going to be aided by acquiring the codex first. The Raptors are a bit of a vague chapter, and information on their chapter makeup is going to be difficult or impossible to find. You'll likely wind up having to base it off of the Raven Guard, their parent legion.

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  4. #3
    TheLibrarian's Avatar
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    Now, I'm only just getting started myself, so instead of giving any advice, I'm simply going to explain the thinking behind my decisions. For advice, read the final lines.

    While 40K is the WOW of TT-Strategy, I'm mainly going to play against my friends. It doesn't matter to me if they have armies of their own, because I want to own and paint all the pretty figurines. If one gets some himself, that's good for him, but no necessity for us to play.

    Also, as I've mentioned before, my first love are electric guitars, and not only am I a player, but a tinkerer. Now a new pickup costs between 100 and 120 Bucks. That's what a Skitarii Codex plus 3 infantry boxes go for. My inhibitions regarding initial investments have been reduced to a minimum in the last few years.

    Still, nonamewight (shoutout here, too!) has recommended me Kill Team.
    Kill Team is great. 40K rules, quick games, 200pt max armies. yes, 200 as a maximum. That's 30 figures at best, but 10 will do fine.

    The Kill Team boxes are OOP, but the rules, you can get them as an ebook for 10 Bucks.
    That means you can try different armies without having to get a full army.

    Everything you get for Kill Team, you can use in full 40k later on, because you can field different armies as allies.

    Now, not only have I bought the Kill Team box and additional Marines (Codex incoming, 'cause while you don't need one to play Kill Team, you need one to properly play Kill Team), but also the starter set of Dropfleet Commander. Again, mainly me vs friends with my ships, 'cause I love the models.

    You should buy directly from hawkwargames.com. They're cheaper than many retailers, but international shipping to and from the USA is a pitb, I know.
    Yes, many don't stock them, 'cause it is a new, but very, very popular game. They might take a while to deliver, but they always come through in the end.

    The DFC and DZC community is a growing one, and co community ever grew 'cause people waited for it to grow, but because they helped it grow.

    tl;dr
    What I'd recommend is buying the Codex: Space Marines. It has the Chapter Tactics for all the big chapters. Raptors are a Raven Guard derivative afaik, so you'd play them by the Raven Guard rules, which you find in the codex, along with Ultramarines etc., so you can play them and all their second founding colleagues, too.
    Then, get the Kill Team rules. You can build your Raptors force, and if you ever need another chapter, just get another Tactical Squad, paint them up and you're good to go. 200 points max, remember?

    Then, if you still need that spaceship kick, get the DFC Starter Set from Hawk directly for 65 GPB plus shipping. If it takes a while, you have your Kill Teams to pass the time.
    And in a big 40K Game, just get one or two HQ units (which you don't need in Kill Team), and field your Raptors and anything else you've got according to the Alliance rules.

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  6. #4
    Knight of the Eclipse manollette's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLibrarian View Post
    Raptors are a Raven Guard derivative afaik, so you'd play them by the Raven Guard rules
    The raptors have their own chapter tactics, courtesy of the folks at forgeworld, found here

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  7. #5
    TheLibrarian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manollette View Post
    The raptors have their own chapter tactics, courtesy of the folks at forgeworld, found here
    Oh, if only they'd offer shoulder pads for all of those... personally, I simply don't like the Red Scorpions, and right now they're the only ones for sale...

    Anyway, I kinda like how the Raptors sound. Have fun with them!

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  8. #6
    Morendie's Avatar
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    Biggest things I can suggest is look on ebay first for models. You can often save a lot of money. Second, don't buy the standard rulebook retail. 90 bucks is absolutely redicules. Buy the smaller condensed rulebooks on ebay that come from the various sets. You can get one from the starter set. You can buy them for 25 bucks off of ebay. Unless you want to spend a bunch of extra, use ebay wherever you can. GWs margin are gigantic, and you won't be hurting there wallet.

    next thing is don't choose a swarm army. By that I mean a army that you have to have a loooot of models to be effective. Examples are orks, Tyranids, and Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) They are super expensive and die in troves xD. Pick something either small or in the mid range, where you don't need to spend as much on models to get you started.

    I personally started on Necrons. They are simple, tough to kill, can hurt anything on rolls of 6s. And they don't have a million options per unit. Its literally either switch out a gun, or add models. Its simple. Makes it easier to get used to the game.

    The other side of it is to go standard space marines. The blue guys. They have all the space marine stuff, tons of choices, and is pretty much the main protagonist of the series. You can go many different ways and if you fully grasped and learned them, jumping into some of the other chapters or races could be easy.

    But as a starting point, you want to start at a easy point. There is quite a bit to learn. Took me forever to learn how to do the wound count math.

    In the end you have to remember this is an expensive hobby. The models are expensive. Which is why to make sure you look on ebay for short cuts if you want to save money. I started myself this december and have spent thousands on this game. And I wish I utilized ebay first!!

    All the start collecting boxes are great deals if you consider how much they cost.

    The dark vengeance set is a great set. But personally I reccomend getting the start collecting box, get the condensed rulebook for 25 bucks from ebay, and grab the codex. Assembled and paint your models, see how many points you got, try setting up some small games, and grow from there. Throw in another squad of marines, then a predator, then maybe some terminators, upgrade your HQ, etc.

    <---- Washington State Player, Centralia WA
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  9. #7
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    As to your first suggestion, I have seen a lot of very cheap models available on eBay, much, much cheaper than even my local store. I was just... a little wary of buying through eBay after some experiences my parents had while trying to buy a Hunting Whip for my brother a couple years ago (the British government confiscated the whip and destroyed it as contraband because it was a "weapon.")


    So, what things should I focus on?
    Raptors, traditionally, have been about stealth, speed, and fliers (because their chapter is so small), so I was thinking something like this (bear in mind, I have no idea as to the point values for these):
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Core:

    HQ- Chapter Master Lias Issodon

    1st Sniper Squadron (Long-Range):
    -Sniper Rifle
    -Sniper Rifle
    -Sniper Rifle
    -Sniper Rifle
    -Missile Launcher

    These Scouts are designed to take cover and put fire into my enemies from long range. Useful for harassment.

    1st & 2nd Tactical Squadron:
    -Bolt-Pistol + Chainsword (Sergeant)
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Bolter
    -Missile Launcher (Special Weapons)

    These squads are meant to use the Legendary Marksman rule to full effect. Replaces the 1st Scout Squad.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Important components (Not critical, but would be necessary for play against anyone at any sort of competitive level)
    Combat Air Patrol:
    -Stormtalon Gunship


    Simply put, when one has snipers, one has to keep the enemy aviation away from them. This is where the Stormtalons come in, as capable anti-ground and anti-air.

    1st Airborne Division:
    -Storm Eagle Gunship

    This one is a little... awkward in my mind. I'm not sure whether to keep this as an Airborne division with a Storm Eagle Gunship or change it to an Armored Division with a Rhino or Razorback. Either way, this squad will likely carry one of the Tactical squads.

    Terminator Squad:
    - Stormbolter + Power Sword (Sergeant)
    -Stormbolter
    -Cyclone Missile Launcher + Stormbolter
    -Stormbolter
    -Stormbolter + Chainfist

    Combining with Lias Issodon, I've heard that Terminators can actually prove incredibly useful, as you can Infiltrate and then Shroud them, OR they can be used to deep strike thanks to Lias's Locator Beacon. Also, they provide nice tanks.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Add-ons:
    Another Stormtalon Gunship

    Last edited by SeraphsWrath; 19th April 2017 at 16:44.
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  10. #8
    Knight of the Eclipse manollette's Avatar
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    The thing with eBay to look out for is custom bases and resin models. There are a LOT of people who try to sell their knockoff models on eBay at a "discount."

    As far as the list goes, one thing to keep in mind is that shotguns are terrible, and you want to make sure each squad is tailored to a specific role. The first scout squad (which I'm pretty sure is illegal, I don't remember scout squads being able to take autocannons anyways) is all over the place. Bolters *or* shotguns *or* snipers. Not all of the above.

    As far as the rend rule, it ONLY applies to bolters and bolt pistols. Meaning your snipers gain nothing from it, and neither does your heavy bolter.

    Overall, the problem I see with this list is that it doesn't use the raptors' unique advantages. A couple of plain ol' bolter-equipped tactical squads would be AMAZING for you, especially with that rend special. Just toss em on an objective and let em stay put. As it sits, your list is very...flimsy. The librarian has no place there because putting him with a long range squad means the odds of him having the chance to use his powers is lower. And everything else has either a terrible armor save or a low AV.

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  11. #9
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manollette View Post
    The thing with eBay to look out for is custom bases and resin models. There are a LOT of people who try to sell their knockoff models on eBay at a "discount."

    As far as the list goes, one thing to keep in mind is that shotguns are terrible, and you want to make sure each squad is tailored to a specific role. The first scout squad (which I'm pretty sure is illegal, I don't remember scout squads being able to take autocannons anyways) is all over the place. Bolters *or* shotguns *or* snipers. Not all of the above.

    As far as the rend rule, it ONLY applies to bolters and bolt pistols. Meaning your snipers gain nothing from it, and neither does your heavy bolter.

    Overall, the problem I see with this list is that it doesn't use the raptors' unique advantages. A couple of plain ol' bolter-equipped tactical squads would be AMAZING for you, especially with that rend special. Just toss em on an objective and let em stay put.
    Well, that's why I posted it, so I could get some feedback and suggestions from experienced people like you.

    Anyway, the Scout's Sergeant (whoops, forgot to include this in the list) + Autocannon is entirely legal, and is one of the recommendations when you look at the "Scout Squad" on the Games Workshop store [https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US...estid=4550028] (in fact, the pack comes with an autocannon to facilitate this.)

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    I think you're confusing a heavy bolter for an autocannon.

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  13. #11
    TheLibrarian's Avatar
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    Not to be the spoilsport here, but geez, that is a lot of stuff you're gonna buy at once!

    And what if you don't even like Raptors play style? (Yeah, granted, that one's a stretch.) Also, it would be a pain to paint all that in one go.

    Instead of planning a very theoretical army now and putting it to the test when it's done, I'd get a Scout and a Tac Squad and try to find someone who can lend you a few of his troops for a 1000pt or so game. Then, you'll see the strengths and weaknesses for yourself and can counter not only according to necessity, but to your preference as well.
    If you see that a Librarian simply doesn't cut it for the Raptors, that Bolters rule but Snipers suck, or if you realize that Sternguards are amazing and you'd rather have them than a second Tac Squad for now, then you'll be glad that you haven't spent the money yet. Instead, you can build your army according to your actual needs.
    Buying a lot of stuff is good and tempting. But having that stuff fit you is better.

    Last edited by TheLibrarian; 18th April 2017 at 21:30.
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  14. #12
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLibrarian View Post
    Not to be the spoilsport here, but geez, that is a lot of stuff you're gonna buy at once!

    And what if you don't even like Raptors play style? (Yeah, granted, that one's a stretch.) Also, it would be a pain to paint all that in one go.

    Instead of planning a very theoretical army now and putting it to the test when it's done, I'd get a Scout and a Tac Squad and try to find someone who can lend you a few of his troops for a 1000pt or so game. Then, you'll see the strengths and weaknesses for yourself and can counter not only according to necessity, but to your preference as well.
    If you see that a Librarian simply doesn't cut it for the Raptors, that Bolters rule but Snipers suck, or if you realize that Sternguards are amazing and you'd rather have them than a second Tac Squad for now, then you'll be glad that you haven't spent the money yet. Instead, you can build your army according to your actual needs.
    Buying a lot of stuff is good and tempting. But having that stuff fit you is better.
    Whoah, whoah, whoah. This is just a vision, here. (I can dream, can't I [-o<)

    What I'm probably gonna start with is either Dark Vengeance or a few Start Collecting Tactical Squads.

    (Like I have 102GBP to drop on a Storm Eagle right now.... Ha! I wish.)

    Last edited by SeraphsWrath; 18th April 2017 at 22:33.
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  15. #13
    Knight of the Eclipse manollette's Avatar
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    It comes with a *heavy bolter* which can be taken by a single model which is NOT the sergeant. Completely different from an autocannon. And while the web store is a good guideline for legality, it is not the end-all; your codex is.

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  16. #14
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLibrarian View Post
    Not to be the spoilsport here, but geez, that is a lot of stuff you're gonna buy at once!
    Okay, I updated the list now. The "Core" Items are separated from the add-ons and the "important" items.

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  17. #15
    TheLibrarian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SeraphsWrath View Post
    Okay, I updated the list now. The "Core" Items are separated from the add-ons and the "important" items.
    The core looks good, as far as I can tell. Close to what I'm getting after getting good advice from this forum.

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  19. #16
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    The best thing about the Dark Vengeance set is its a FANTASTIC buy.

    Not only do you get a condensed rule book, but you get 2 HQs, a full squad of marines you can slice into 2 troops, you get 3 bikes for a fast attack, and a set of terminators for an elite choice. Perfect amount to start with. This isn't even getting intot he fact that you get an additional army with this.

    Now lets break down how much money your saving

    The rulebook block is about 90 bucks
    Box of Marines is 40 bucks
    box of Deathwing terminators 60 bucks
    box of ravenwing bikes 40 bucks

    Those alone is 230 bucks. Not counting in the other army you get. That is pretty solid, and you are basically getting a crap ton for free.

    What I recommend is you buy the Dark Angels Codex, and more tactical marines and Deathwing terminators from ebay (You can get them pretty cheap). You could easily get a bunch more at a very low cost to fuel your starting army.
    Then start maybe getting some dreadnaughts, or order more bikes to utilize its formations.

    The codex will be the second most expensive thing you get besides the Dark Vengeance set. You will save a ton of money, and easily be able to make a 1850 standard list. I would start there, get a hang and grasp of all the rules, and once you do that, move onto a different chapter or whatever else you are wanting. Remember you can paint them and call them whatever you want. As long as you stick with whats in your codex in terms of models and rules. Unless you physically move onto a new army.

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  21. #17
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    Okay. I have reserved a copy with my local game store, which is, yes, more expensive than ordering online, but there's no shipping, and I'm a firm advocate of "Shop where you play." Anway, most of the excess (~$20) will probably come-back to me in some form or another (and probably in the form of cheap Magic cards: they were selling the Kaladesh Booster Box, the one with 36 Booster Packs, for $42 in March, which is basically $100 off what it would be if you bought all 36 separately. Sure, it's an older set, but it's still 36 guaranteed Rares. Also, they're $10 cheaper to draft and Prerelease than all of the other places I've been).

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  22. #18
    The Truth Architech's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SeraphsWrath View Post
    Okay. I have reserved a copy with my local game store
    it looks like nobody mentioned it, but the next edition of the game is on the horizon

    http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthre...It-s-happening!!!

    so you should weigh your options instead of shuffling forward with books and such (models SHOULD be fine)

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  23. #19
    SeraphsWrath's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Architech View Post
    it looks like nobody mentioned it, but the next edition of the game is on the horizon

    http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthre...It-s-happening!!!

    so you should weigh your options instead of shuffling forward with books and such (models SHOULD be fine)
    Hmmm.....
    Does anyone know if they will update the existing starter, Dark Vengeance, to include a new copy of the Rules? Or will they make a new starter?

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  24. #20
    Morendie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SeraphsWrath View Post
    Hmmm.....
    Does anyone know if they will update the existing starter, Dark Vengeance, to include a new copy of the Rules? Or will they make a new starter?
    No, they won't, but there is no reason to not get it.

    because Dark Angels will still be in 8th, the core rules will be free, and the Dark Angels codex will probably only be about 25 bucks. And I am sure if you get that and contact GW, they will give you a voucher for a discount on the codex.

    Even then, the box is still a great deal. You get 2 armies for little over 100 bucks. Each army in the box is over 100 bucks retail. All the models will still be relevant. You are just buying 200+ dollars in models for little over 100 bucks.

    They will come out with new starter sets but not versions of what your getting. Remember its only the rules that won't be compatible. Most of the rules will probably be the same.

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