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  1. #62
    Gorkagirl SonsOfStalingrad's Avatar
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    generally a low strength and D1 per wound though.

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  2. #63
    Nuts. edmundblack's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter. Auto-hits are auto-hits, and throw enough s*it at the wall ...

    Does make the Psyker flyer of Eldar pretty damn awesome in the skies though.

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  3. #64
    Ann's Avatar
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    I agree that it seems silly that flyers can be targeted by flamers when I try to picture it in my head, which I generally don't try to do too much with 40K, but I'll say this: if someone is shooting their flamers at my flyer instead of some of my other units in most games I play then I'm probably going to be pretty happy about that.

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  4. #65
    Tahaal's Avatar
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    It is definitely one of my least favorite things about 8th (that, and poor terrain rules). The abstraction that flamers can hit flyers just doesn't work for me. I'd hope they'll add a rule to all flamer weapons like "Cannot target units with the Flyer battlefield role".

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  5. #66
    Ann's Avatar
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    I agree; it doesn't really work that well for me either in my personal theater of the mind, even if it is a game with magic and such. I often reconcile this for myself by made up little work around's such as the idea that the flamers might be able to work because they are magical (Tzeentch) or have special ammunition, in addition to their usual role, that allows them to be used sort of like RPG"s where the can shoot airburst grenades, etc. etc.

    It works for me just fine from a gaming/mechanics standpoint and from that perspective I like the flyer rules better now than they way they were.

    Same with infantry assaulting tanks. When I read about some of the tactics various armies used in WW2 (and 40K plays an awful lot like a platoon or company level WW2 game, I think) I have no trouble with the idea that even the lowliest infantry can hurt tanks in close assault when those tanks are unsupported by infantry. My theater of the mind is quite intact there.

    My biggest fear is that the incoming codices are going to mess up a game that seems pretty fun now. I remain hopeful that won't be the case though.

    Last edited by Ann; 24th July 2017 at 05:02.
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  6. #67
    Morr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ann View Post
    I agree; it doesn't really work that well for me either in my personal theater of the mind, even if it is a game with magic and such. I often reconcile this for myself by made up little work around's such as the idea that the flamers might be able to work because they are magical (Tzeentch) or have special ammunition, in addition to their usual role, that allows them to be used sort of like RPG"s where the can shoot airburst grenades, etc. etc.

    It works for me just fine from a gaming/mechanics standpoint and from that perspective I like the flyer rules better now than they way they were.

    Same with infantry assaulting tanks. When I read about some of the tactics various armies used in WW2 (and 40K plays an awful lot like a platoon or company level WW2 game, I think) I have no trouble with the idea that even the lowliest infantry can hurt tanks in close assault when those tanks are unsupported by infantry. My theater of the mind is quite intact there.

    My biggest fear is that the incoming codices are going to mess up a game that seems pretty fun now. I remain hopeful that won't be the case though.
    I have to agree. Although I do wish defensive weapons were a thing and vehicle close combat attacks used them rather than this apparently arbitrary number of attacks they get. Honestly adding a storm bolter to a pred should let them blaze away at attackers and not get turned off when the enemy gets too close.

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  7. #68
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Morr View Post
    Exactly. Less useful as they need a babysitter. Fine for guard but less so with the points heavy marines. On its own it's not so much of an issue as you can use a battle line as a screen but with how deepstrike works a drop charge is quite feasible.
    Two units of 10 Scouts, and two units of 10 Tacticals in two lines can cut off a 25" depth of a Dawn of War deployment. That is without factoring the coverage of the tanks themselves.

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  8. #69
    Morr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    Two units of 10 Scouts, and two units of 10 Tacticals in two lines can cut off a 25" depth of a Dawn of War deployment. That is without factoring the coverage of the tanks themselves.
    I fail to see how using 40 models to protect a tank is a valid strategy?!. And subsequently begs the question "and then what?" Sure you have protected your tanks expensively with units which have fairly poor firepower, great. But as you opponent can hold his guys in reserve until what turn 3? Not only are you having 40 guys protect a tank but also do nothing else for 3 turns. How is that useful?

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  9. #70
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    If your opponent held there units in reserve til turn 3 they're not being used for two whole turns. Considering the common sentiment that 8th is won or lost within the first three turns holding them off until 3 is nearly a victory in itself. The tanks themselves are supposed to be the firepower are they not?

    It's also a viable strategy to take guardsmen as allies. or Inquisitorial Acolytes. Even Dreadnoughts can be bubble wrap.

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  11. #71
    Morr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    If your opponent held there units in reserve til turn 3 they're not being used for two whole turns. Considering the common sentiment that 8th is won or lost within the first three turns holding them off until 3 is nearly a victory in itself. The tanks themselves are supposed to be the firepower are they not?

    It's also a viable strategy to take guardsmen as allies. or Inquisitorial Acolytes. Even Dreadnoughts can be bubble wrap.
    That's a false logic I'm afraid. Even going with the anecdotal evidence that winning is achieved in the first 3 turns it is still predicated on you doing something to achieve the mission objectives and not just turtling.

    We are to be honest getting away from the core issue here which is the ability of a gretchin to stun lock a predator for no apparent reason.

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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by Tahaal View Post
    It is definitely one of my least favorite things about 8th (that, and poor terrain rules). The abstraction that flamers can hit flyers just doesn't work for me. I'd hope they'll add a rule to all flamer weapons like "Cannot target units with the Flyer battlefield role".
    As for Flamers targeting Flyers it doesn't bother me.

    Besides, if someone pours points into flamers then he isn't using those points for other weapons, such as lascannon, and he's taking up weapon options as well. True that flame throwers are not usually consideredto be AA weapons Think of it as the flyer getting hit by the flamer as its coming low for a strafing run. Either way it certainly is far from a game breaking situation. Seriously if someone is banking on S4 or S5 weapons with 8" range as anti- air weapons against your flyers what are you worrying about?

    As for 8th in general I love it.

    Last edited by Montford981; 31st July 2017 at 12:27.
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  13. #73
    The only Forum Zombie Angelofblades's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Morr View Post
    That's a false logic I'm afraid. Even going with the anecdotal evidence that winning is achieved in the first 3 turns it is still predicated on you doing something to achieve the mission objectives and not just turtling.

    We are to be honest getting away from the core issue here which is the ability of a gretchin to stun lock a predator for no apparent reason.
    There is a reason. The reason is you let a grot get to the predator.

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  15. #74
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    Bubble wrap only has to be static until the enemy deep strikes. If they don't have anything that deep strikes/when they deep strike bubble wrap can be mobile and more effective that way. The traditional way may still be valid (I'm new, so I haven't experimented too much yet). Also bubble wrap used against deep strike can force an opponent to deep strike into a bad position for them and a good one for you.

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  16. #75
    Ann's Avatar
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    The effectiveness of bubble wrap depends a lot on the mission, I think. For example, this past weekend I played that first GW campaign Konor mission, where one side gets points for killing units and the other side gets points for ending the game with units in the defender's deployment zone. We had a reasonable but not excessive amount of LOS-blocking terrain on the table. The game we played wouldn't really have supported committing too much to one area since it would be possible for the attacker to hide units and win the game that way. The defender is forced to confront the attacker, especially if the attacker doesn't blob her forces herself. I found it useful to deploy across a wide front, but fortunately for my Guard opponent, he was playing mechanized and was pretty mobile. I saw that Leeman Russ tanks are far more mobile than they used to be. I did find that while many vehicles are vulnerable to being suppressed by forcing them to fall back out of combat, they are much more survivable and hence require less bubble wrap than in the past where it was a matter of surviving for more than one turn.



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    Last edited by Ann; 1st August 2017 at 22:16.
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  17. #76

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    it got me back in

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  18. #77
    Morr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Angelofblades View Post
    There is a reason. The reason is you let a grot get to the predator.
    Somewhat missing the point....

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  19. #78
    The only Forum Zombie Angelofblades's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Morr View Post
    Somewhat missing the point....
    Not really, can you not imagine the cinematic? The marine tank driver would find it as an affront not only to the blessed predator's machine spirit, but his own honor to even tolerate a grot running around the tank. Who knows what it could be doing to it, what cracks or crevices it could get into.

    You believe because of it's diminutive size, it should appear as less of a threat? Imagine Goliath's surprise when David felled him. A threat is a threat, regardless of it's source or size, and all threats should be given equal response.

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  21. #79
    Ann's Avatar
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    I also think grots could get up to some the tricks people do/have done in real life to come to grips with armor when they lack proper weapons, which in a game sense can be accounted for their unlikely possibility of hurting a tank or at least forcing it not to completely ignore them. Improvised bombs (or bags of vicious baby squigs) into vision slits or down an exhaust, stick a metal bar in the tracks, hang something that causes smoke over the gun barrel to obscure someone else jumping up on the top of the deck and having at the engine grills with an axe, etc. etc.

    Last edited by Ann; 9th August 2017 at 22:02.
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  22. #80
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    I'm sure way back when, even GW said that armour had to be careful near Grots, purely because when you heard enough of them around a tank, the dead ones are enough to clog the tracks.

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