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  1. #1

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    Talons of The Emperor and why Custodes are left wanting.

    So in the Imperial 2 Index, or Index 2 Imperial, whatever it may be called, Talons of the Emperor was a fantastic group of the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence. Yet we get the Adeptus Custodes codex, and not only are we left with no cheap unit choice, but a serious lack of dakka. Why have them be the Talons of the Emperor in the index, then shaft us with an incomplete army in the codex?

    The Sisters of Silence were cheap, had dakka, flamers, and melee, could be mixed, and the color theme fit well with the Custodes. Why were they not added to the Custodes codex? Why are they left with nothing but elite choices, and a single troop choice so expensive that if you don't soup up your list, you are left with a severely limited list of easily countered tactics. I made a pure Custodes list because I liked the benefits it brings, but I feel like I am just lacking a good ranged troop choice that can sit behind a line of sword and board guards. I really wish GW decided to just have the Sisters of Silence part of the Custodes list as your second, much cheaper, troop choice, I feel like they made a serious mistake.

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  2. #2
    Lady Lion's Avatar
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    There's a lot of reasons why they may have chosen to split the Sisters of Silence off from the Custodians. The way they have done it (however unpopular) gives us two full armies with an array of stratagems. It also allows both to have full sets of kits so that there is variety in the army. Releasing the two groups in one book would have reduced both the stratagems and the number of kits available with the codex. There's also the fact that they are both essentially brand-new armies for 40K and GW has issues keeping their models in stock as it is.

    I have no doubt that when we do finally get the Sisters of Silence codex that it will slot together with the Custodian codex to make a fully functional Talons of the Emperor army. However, I do want options for the Sisters of Silence, and they can get their own special characters and HQs as well. Perhaps Oblivion Knights to partner with Shield Captains and a Soulless Queen to match Valoris.

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  3. #3

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    Originally Posted by Lady Lion View Post
    There's a lot of reasons why they may have chosen to split the Sisters of Silence off from the Custodians. The way they have done it (however unpopular) gives us two full armies with an array of stratagems. It also allows both to have full sets of kits so that there is variety in the army. Releasing the two groups in one book would have reduced both the stratagems and the number of kits available with the codex. There's also the fact that they are both essentially brand-new armies for 40K and GW has issues keeping their models in stock as it is.

    I have no doubt that when we do finally get the Sisters of Silence codex that it will slot together with the Custodian codex to make a fully functional Talons of the Emperor army. However, I do want options for the Sisters of Silence, and they can get their own special characters and HQs as well. Perhaps Oblivion Knights to partner with Shield Captains and a Soulless Queen to match Valoris.
    "Full armies" is a strong choice of words when the Adeptus Custodes get, without the beta Forge World units, 1 troop choice, 1 fast attack, 1 heavy support, and the rest are elites with 3 choices there. I will not accept Vexillus Praetors as being a unique unit as it is just a normal unit holding a flag. I wont even get into how the only named HQ we get is god awful compared to just taking 2 assorted shield-captains for nearly the same price. That is taking a Dawneagle Shield-Captain with the Auric Aquilas and Superior Creation and Salvo Launcher to give the army at least some chance at dedicated vehicle hunting. All that gives you a nearly unkillable, more powerful HQ than taking Trajann at 175 points compared to 250, since this army is overpriced as it is, that point difference makes a massive difference.

    Most of the units in the army are literally taking a helmet off of a unit, or throwing him a flag, so that makes unique looking units being the Guards, Wardens (barely), Allarus, Vertus Praetors, and Trajann. All this means if you want a pure Custodes army, you basically give up any chance of having any shooting worth using. Even the Grey Knights get some decent dakka and they are considered an elite army.

    The Custodes literally HAVE a dakka unit called the Sagittarum Guard, that is essentially Custodes Guard with a better heavy bolter caliver, it is such an obvious add, yet the codex is suspiciously missing it. They have forge world conversions for the Custodes Guard to Sagittarum Guard, but the rules are 7th edition, and do not have an 8th edition update, so as much as I would love to get some, unless they get approved rules, there is no point.

    I built my army already, so these are more pet peeves than anything else, and I will keep running my Custodes pure even if it is weaker because I think it is silly to soup up your army just because GW can't keep track of the lore they made.

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  4. #4
    GreyKnight92's Avatar
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    To be fair, Grey Knights don't exactly have the best anti-armor either. While it's possible to rely on psychic powers such as vortex of doom, smite, and any other offensive powers for that, if the opponent has both armor and a psyker of their own it gets more difficult because there's the chance of it getting blocked by deny the witch. Custodes have better dedicated units for anti-armor and armor vs. armor.

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  5. #5
    Lady Lion's Avatar
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    Maybe not full armies, factions might have been the better word there. Custodians technically had a codex in 7th, but it wasn't widely announced so most people missed it. Sisters of Silence are almost (but not quite) coming out of left field. There's still the fact that they need the plastic models to release with the book along with tactics, tactical objectives, and warlord traits. This separation gives a fuller feeling to both Sisters of Silence and Custodians. This allows for more flexibility, at least to me, for those who want to run a Talons army and those who want to run pure groups of each.

    Also, GW has a LOT of lore to try to keep track of. It'd be nice if they kept better track of it. However, that's not likely to happen anytime soon (this is GW we're talking about, they don't even proof-read for typos...).

    Last edited by Lady Lion; 26th March 2018 at 05:51.
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  6. #6

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    Originally Posted by GreyKnight92 View Post
    To be fair, Grey Knights don't exactly have the best anti-armor either. While it's possible to rely on psychic powers such as vortex of doom, smite, and any other offensive powers for that, if the opponent has both armor and a psyker of their own it gets more difficult because there's the chance of it getting blocked by deny the witch. Custodes have better dedicated units for anti-armor and armor vs. armor.
    At least you get psychic powers, the best Custodes can muster is spending an oh so precious command point to use a strategem to deny a power, or lose the amazing bubbles of our Vexilla to do the same.

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  7. #7

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    Originally Posted by Lady Lion View Post
    Maybe not full armies, factions might have been the better word there. Custodians technically had a codex in 7th, but it wasn't widely announced so most people missed it. Sisters of Silence are almost (but not quite) coming out of left field. There's still the fact that they need the plastic models to release with the book along with tactics, tactical objectives, and warlord traits. This separation gives a fuller feeling to both Sisters of Silence and Custodians. This allows for more flexibility, at least to me, for those who want to run a Talons army and those who want to run pure groups of each.

    Also, GW has a LOT of lore to try to keep track of. It'd be nice if they kept better track of it. However, that's not likely to happen anytime soon (this is GW we're talking about, they don't even proof-read for typos...).
    The problem I see is although they dominate low point games, once you start getting into higher points requiring specific detachments, Custodes cannot bring to bear anything close to competitive numbers. The worst part is we have amazing strategems, but barely enough command points to use any of the good ones. Vexilla Teleport Homer and From Golden Light They Come are the best strategems we have, and they cost 3 command points. I am not asking to be able to run a Brigade, but it would be nice to be able to run a Battalion and maybe another specialized detachment without feeling like we got our pants pulled down.

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  8. #8
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CelticKodiak View Post
    Talons of the Emperor was a fantastic group of the Custodes, and the Sisters of Silence.
    Were are you getting this from? Index: Imperium 2 had no "Talons of the Emperor" faction. SoS and Custodes were not even in the same section. In fact there is two other factions in between them, and you still needed to run an HQ from another faction with them if you didn't want to run unbound.
    You are still completely able to take them together, and it actually works better now that at least one of the factions has an HQ.

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  9. #9

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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    Were are you getting this from? Index: Imperium 2 had no "Talons of the Emperor" faction. SoS and Custodes were not even in the same section. In fact there is two other factions in between them, and you still needed to run an HQ from another faction with them if you didn't want to run unbound.
    You are still completely able to take them together, and it actually works better now that at least one of the factions has an HQ.
    Front of the cover, in large white text, Talons of the Emperor, which includes, the Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence, I would link it, but I am denied that until I post 10 times. If you take them together, since they are now separate armies, you lose the Custodes ability for having a pure army. That is infantry and bikes get +1 to their invulnerable save, which, if you are running pure Custodes, you 100% require it. Having the Sisters of Silence rolled into the Custodes with an HQ, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, and some Elites would give both armies a much more complete army. Unless the Sisters of Silence are getting a ton of new stuff, which I highly doubt as they are as new as the Custodes, then having both factions be rolled into one, under Talons of the Empire, and still gain all the benefits of a pure Custodes detachment, or giving them a specific special rule for Talons of the Emperor detachment, would have been significantly better.

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  10. #10
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    I really can't see GW not expanding Sisters of Silece. There is no way they can release a codex with what they have now.

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  11. #11
    Lady Lion's Avatar
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    We can run a Battalion, it's just three troops and 2 HQs. It's not the best battalion detachment for sure, but it is there. Also souping is probably best for getting all the command points for using the awesome stratagems such as From Golden Light They Come, Swooping Dive (3 cp to counter charge with the jetbikes), and others.

    Brigade detachments are ridiculous for just about any army that doesn't soup in some fashion. Dark Angels (another elite army, I know) can't really do it without souping with IG. IG can do it by themselves, but they are one of the only armies that I can think of that doesn't need to soup for a brigade. There are probably others that aren't Imperium who can, but I'm largely familiar with Imperium in terms of points.

    There's no way their not going to make something that works for Talons with the release of the Sisters of Silence codex. We just have to be patient while they get their stuff together.

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  12. #12

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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    I really can't see GW not expanding Sisters of Silece. There is no way they can release a codex with what they have now.
    I mean, you aren't wrong, of course they will expand them, the Custodes were just a Guard unit in the index with spears, sentinel blade and storm shield, and power knife. Nothing more, nothing less, while the Sisters of Silence had a complete troop choice, with a ranged weapon, flamer, and melee weapon, as well as a Rhino variant. They were more rounded out than the Custodes were in the index, and with the codex we get very few additions to the Custodes, most of which are simple reskins of the Guard unit, Land Raider, and Contemptor Dreadnought. Honestly not even reskins, they just put Venerable at the beginning of the name and gave them better stats.

    What I am saying is, they should have rounded out BOTH of them, and released a Talons of the Empire codex, instead of a separate codex for both, leaving Custodes with a less than complete army, and what I assume to be a similar army for the Sisters of Silence. Otherwise they are going to have to release some free pdf documents with some new units for Custodes, cause after the money dropped on those pricey models, I am not spending another cent on them until I see some better troop choices. The Sagittarum Guard better make an appearance in 8th edition sooner rather than later.

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  13. #13

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    Originally Posted by Lady Lion View Post
    We can run a Battalion, it's just three troops and 2 HQs. It's not the best battalion detachment for sure, but it is there. Also souping is probably best for getting all the command points for using the awesome stratagems such as From Golden Light They Come, Swooping Dive (3 cp to counter charge with the jetbikes), and others.

    Brigade detachments are ridiculous for just about any army that doesn't soup in some fashion. Dark Angels (another elite army, I know) can't really do it without souping with IG. IG can do it by themselves, but they are one of the only armies that I can think of that doesn't need to soup for a brigade. There are probably others that aren't Imperium who can, but I'm largely familiar with Imperium in terms of points.

    There's no way their not going to make something that works for Talons with the release of the Sisters of Silence codex. We just have to be patient while they get their stuff together.
    A Talons of the Emperor special rule would be amazing, but Custodes still need an option for a pure army like any other faction. As I said, I am not asking for a Brigade option, but it would be nice to get a Battalion and one other specialized detachment together for that one extra CP. As I said, I have built my army, I even posted it here, I would like cheaper troop choices, but I will live and die by a pure Custodes army.

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  14. #14
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    The thing is they weren't going to have the production capacity or sculpting time at their disposal to produce much more for Talons of the Emperor than they did for Custodes, and they wouldn't have gotten many if any more stratagems. So the best version of what you're asking for that we would have gotten is maybe dropping the Wardens to get one new Sisters kit and maybe a character model, and half the Custodes stratagems getting replaced by Sisters ones.
    A Talons of the Emperor book may have been better to play Talons of the Emperor than what we have now, but it would have been worse for Custodes then what we have now, and worse for Sisters than what we are likely to get.
    Forge world has announced that they are eventually going to release rules for more of their Custodes units.

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  15. #15
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    There is also the old anti-psyker tactic of killing them as early as possible (had to do that in my third game). At least Custodes have a way to do so a little quicker since while they're limited, they're just as strong as Grey Knights, if not a bit stronger (Strength 5 and all)

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  16. #16

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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    The thing is they weren't going to have the production capacity or sculpting time at their disposal to produce much more for Talons of the Emperor than they did for Custodes, and they wouldn't have gotten many if any more stratagems. So the best version of what you're asking for that we would have gotten is maybe dropping the Wardens to get one new Sisters kit and maybe a character model, and half the Custodes stratagems getting replaced by Sisters ones.
    A Talons of the Emperor book may have been better to play Talons of the Emperor than what we have now, but it would have been worse for Custodes then what we have now, and worse for Sisters than what we are likely to get.
    Forge world has announced that they are eventually going to release rules for more of their Custodes units.
    Basically code for, "GW wanted to make more money, so they split the armies, and are going to stagger the release of new units on the more expensive Forge World, to make sure profit comes in at regular intervals." That is what I heard anyways, I mean they completely redid the rules, so you have to buy the new rule book, indexes to be a go-between, then all new codexes, and nerf cheap units, and make more expensive units better, hmm, I wonder why. They are rushing to get the new codexes out, and should have honestly waiting for both Custodes and Sisters of Silence until after all the base factions were done, so they could give them the attention they deserve. I have this sinking feeling there will be more books to buy for the new units they could have released had they taken the time and actually went through their lore.

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  17. #17

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    Originally Posted by GreyKnight92 View Post
    There is also the old anti-psyker tactic of killing them as early as possible (had to do that in my third game). At least Custodes have a way to do so a little quicker since while they're limited, they're just as strong as Grey Knights, if not a bit stronger (Strength 5 and all)
    If the Sisters of Silence were added in with the Custodes I would say, yes, absolutely, we have a great anti-psyker tactic. As it is, we do get a 6+ to negate mortal wounds, which essentially is a smite or psyker save. A 6+ against smite spam, or any other psychic ability that deals mortal wounds means we are losing units unless we get super lucky, or the enemy psyker is super unlucky. As I said before, our only anti-psyker tactic right now is using a stratagem, spending what precious little CP we have to do so, or give up the additional attack, or neg to hit that our vexilla bubbles give the troops.

    I suppose our best tactic against psykers are those sweet, sweet jet bikes, really the only good unit we have that is worth the points.

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  18. #18
    Nikolai's Avatar
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    Smite only averages 2 wound, so one smite is not enough to kill any model in the codex. There is a warlord trait to grant a deny the witch. Inescapable Vengeance can let you kill most psykers worth a damn before they can cast.

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  19. #19

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    Originally Posted by Nikolai View Post
    Smite only averages 2 wound, so one smite is not enough to kill any model in the codex. There is a warlord trait to grant a deny the witch. Inescapable Vengeance can let you kill most psykers worth a damn before they can cast.
    Personally, I would rather use the same CP cost for Unleash the Lions the turn after they drop in with Vexilla Teleport Homer so they cannot be focused fired down as a unit, the enemy would have to split their fire, or just focus on one. As far as wounds average, thats still 2 wounds, that means their dakka needs a lot less dakka to drop one. Luck can damn you in any army, but it hurts more with Custodes, as any unit that dies is a huge loss, considering 30 Nobs is cheaper than 9 Guards.

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  20. #20
    Acceptable Sneggy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CelticKodiak View Post
    That is taking a Dawneagle Shield-Captain with the Auric Aquilas and Superior Creation and Salvo Launcher to give the army at least some chance at dedicated vehicle hunting.
    Statistically the hurricanes are better vs everything except T8 and a properly built custodes army will be putting out 200+ hurricane shots. Also those lances wreck tanks. You have some of the most effective anti-tank in the game.

    Originally Posted by CelticKodiak View Post
    Basically code for, "GW wanted to make more money, so they split the armies, and are going to stagger the release of new units on the more expensive Forge World, to make sure profit comes in at regular intervals." That is what I heard anyways, I mean they completely redid the rules, so you have to buy the new rule book, indexes to be a go-between, then all new codexes, and nerf cheap units, and make more expensive units better, hmm, I wonder why.
    They made a new edition so of course they did a new rulebook. The edition changed so dramatically it required new rules for every model. GW provided those new rules, all at once. They are now releasing codices quickly so everybody can have a fleshed out army.

    Would you have prefered a rulebook without the indexes? Then good new folks, like 2 armies can play the game for the first few weeks then we will add two more every month (on average.) Sorry ork and sisters players, your codices aren't coming out until last so guess you can't play this edition for a year. Me personally I'd rather pay £15 for an index.

    Nerf cheap units and buff expensive ones. Tell me again how 7 flyrants is the most expensive tyranid build? Especially when everybody who played competitive 40k already owned 5 from 7th edition.
    Or how blood angels armies with a couple of sanguinary guard and a unit of death company are rocking the meta?

    If they were buffing the expensive kits to make people buy them surely knights, wraithknights would be good. Why would they be increasing pts costs of stuff like conscripts and brimstone horrors so you can take less of them? Want to know whats really expensive to buy? 300 brimstone horrors and 10 exalted flamers. What was the first army nerfed so you couldn't take it....
    This whole GW makes rules to sell expensive models is a fallacy people on the internet perpetuate to back up their whining. The hobby is expensive, the models are expensive. GW however isn't some evil corporation manipulating things so you have to buy more, they are a shop trying to sell you things. The only thing making you buy more is you.

    You think Custodes aren't good enough because they lack sisters, go look up Mani Cheema's current tournament list, that things ripping the meta apart and its like 1700pts custodes with a tiny amount of guard tacked on. Geoff Robinson has just won back to back tournaments in the US running completely different Custodes list to Mani showing the armies not mono build.

    Turns out having an army of 2+/4++ all of whom can fly, have lances/axes/spears is pretty great. Hurricane bolters are also one of the most pts efficient weapons in the game atm. Guess what you can spam?
    Back them up with a few cheap bodies (in an entirely seperate detachment so both are pure) and you have a very good set up.

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